[IC] Katana60 tmk/qmk 60% PCB, with ALPs and MX support -updated intro

rominronin · 05 Apr 2017, 23:16

Latest update post: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=88 ... msg2477138

Introduction
Katana60 is a symmetrical row staggered PCB that is compatible with standard 60% keyboards and standard keysets. You can use Matias/ALPS switches in any of the compatible layouts, and there is a layout which is compatible with an AEKii keycap set. The idea of the compatibility layouts is to reduce costs when it comes to hunting down keys for your new board.

Compatibility
This image illustrates the multiple bottom compatibility options available on the PCB. The MX and AEKii labels are a guide - you can use whichever layout you want with any switch type, though in order to use the AEKii compatible stabilisers, you will need to get your own plate cut.

KLE compatibility:
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/# ... 989bd6f36c

Or image:

Spoiler:

Great for touch typing
The board is symmetrical row staggered, which is great if you're a touch typer and/or you use Dvorak/Colemak layouts, or any other layouts optimised for maximum home-row time. The idea here is that you rarely need to move your hands from the home row, making it more efficient and ergonomical.

Many ergonomic keyboards on the market tend to be expensive, require completely custom keycaps sets (adding to the cost) and have an odd shaped case. Trying one without being sure if you'll like it requires a leap of financial faith. The Katana60 will be cheaper to try, and you can choose one of many 60% cases, giving you a lot of customisation choice.

Plate PCB and Pricing
There will be a universal plate available at the same time as the PCB. The PCB supports PCB mounted Cherry stabilisers, though you can make your own plate with plate mounted cut-outs if you wish. Though the original intention was to launch a group buy, but the Katana60 will instead be made available at http://candykeys.com

The PCB and universal is currently being quote up and prices will be revealed soon. I welcome all of your feedback, please leave your comments below.

Original post:

Spoiler:

Menuhin · 06 Apr 2017, 01:30

I've seen your post at /r/MK

Majority of active DT people in general don't like 60%, they like those ultra big boards such as IBM F122, and they like vintage boards like Hall-effect boards.

I don't mind having a 60% like this one, with the left hand rotated naturally like the right hand. Again, please think about a TrackPoint at that space in the middle

It doesn't mean you have to implement the whole solution but can just show us the possibility.

Edit: Interested in 3. both the PCB and the plate. I don't mind the plate to be universal for both MX and Alps.

codemonkeymike · 06 Apr 2017, 01:46

I wouldn't say that there is a dislike for 60%'s more like a dislike for the Poker style layout 60%'s. There are a handful of people here who use HHKB's

suka · 06 Apr 2017, 09:20

The layout looks like an enlarged

version of my HyperNano, in case you haven't seen it.

In general, I liked the symmetric layout very much and also found the TrackPoint a perfect addition in the center. Managing to put it under keys without increasing overall height is a challenge, however, unless you can source a model with the stick assembly detached from its PCB - thats why I originally chose to have a larger separation in the center and no keys there.

The Katana60 looks like a well designed layout compromise between small size and minor ergonomic improvements in symmetry and hand separation. Personally, I'd mostly miss the option of using smaller sized thumb-keys, especially in the center, and of course the option to split it apart

Khers · 06 Apr 2017, 09:25

Menuhin wrote: Majority of active DT people in general don't like 60%, they like those ultra big boards such as IBM F122, and they like vintage boards like Hall-effect boards.

I don't know. I consider myself a DT regular and I've got these:

Spoiler:

On topic; even though it would be fun to test something with a symmetrical stagger, I don't know if I would like it. It does look rather interesting though so I'll give it some thought.

Oh and btw, do you have any plans to include Alps plates in the GB?

Ray · 06 Apr 2017, 10:45

I thought you botched the bottom row for both hands until I realized you just mixed up N and M in both your pictures.

So only the left bottom row is 0.75 off from the regular stagger, which still would be a nogo for me (you will still use regular keyboards from time to time) unless I use a completely different layout.

PS: At first I saw the fist pic and thought "urgh, symetrical stagger. Another almost as bad concept as standard stagger, but not standard.", but when I reached the actual photo it changed to "oh nice alps pbt keycaps, I might enjoy that board".

fruitalgorithm · 06 Apr 2017, 13:49

There are alternatives, but I have no idea how they’ll perform, and so testing will be required: https://www.adafruit.com/product/504
https://www.amazon.co.uk/ALPS-SSAF22010 ... B01G4X3BF2

These are not equal to a trackpoint. A trackpoint is like a miniature analog joystick. The harder you press into one direction the faster the mouse pointer moves. The ones you posted are just directional buttons. So it clicks into every direction once.

rominronin · 06 Apr 2017, 18:14

suka wrote: The layout looks like an enlarged version of my HyperNano, in case you haven't seen it.

In general, I liked the symmetric layout very much and also found the TrackPoint a perfect addition in the center. Managing to put it under keys without increasing overall height is a challenge, however, unless you can source a model with the stick assembly detached from its PCB - thats why I originally chose to have a larger separation in the center and no keys there.

The Katana60 looks like a well designed layout compromise between small size and minor ergonomic improvements in symmetry and hand separation. Personally, I'd mostly miss the option of using smaller sized thumb-keys, especially in the center, and of course the option to split it apart

Hey, I had seen that board (and was very interested in getting one before I started working on this

); great to have your voice in the discussion suka!

Since you're here, maybe you could share some insight about working a trackpoint into a PCB design. Are they only available second hand? IIRC, there are different versions with different pinouts. If a steady supply doesn't exist, then the best I could offer is to place the pins on the PCB so people could mount them if they wish.

I've been meaning to ask if there were any equivalents (note how I didn't say 'alternatives') of a trackpoint. I mean, it's such a useful device you'd think there'd be knock-offs everywhere!?

rominronin · 06 Apr 2017, 18:17

Khers wrote: do you have any plans to include Alps plates in the GB?

I hope so, I'd like an ALPS plate if possible.
How would you feel about getting MX + ALPS cutouts?

ramnes · 06 Apr 2017, 18:21

Menuhin wrote: Majority of active DT people in general don't like 60%, they like those ultra big boards such as IBM F122, and they like vintage boards like Hall-effect boards.

Stabilized · 06 Apr 2017, 18:25

I would definitely give this a try if I can get the plate and PCB are under £60 and if it fits in standard 60% cases.

Menuhin · 06 Apr 2017, 20:21

ramnes wrote:
Menuhin wrote: Majority of active DT people in general don't like 60%, they like those ultra big boards such as IBM F122, and they like vintage boards like Hall-effect boards.

Isn't it quite true?

I will consider member for example Khers - part of the minority.

suka · 07 Apr 2017, 12:34

rominronin wrote: ... could share some insight about working a trackpoint into a PCB design. Are they only available second hand? IIRC, there are different versions with different pinouts. If a steady supply doesn't exist, then the best I could offer is to place the pins on the PCB so people could mount them if they wish.

I'm only aware of second hand modules - luckily, it isn't hard to get them from laptop keyboard replacements. All models I have are documented somewhere around here or geekhack, and as PS/2 devices hooking them up is rather straight-forward. If you wish to prepare for future integration you could leave the relevant pins accessible and unused in your board. TMK has documentation on which ones the different modes require, UART and interrupt based methods seem better suited, but essentially any one pin is probably fine with the most simple bit-banging approach.

The hardest part in my opinion is to hook up the modules mechanically: with all the different controller boards out there and probably several location options on the board pcb itself it seems quite hard to design a general solution in advance. 7bit had some useful options catered for in his HyperMicro-PCB, but in the end it needs a case adjusted to one specific TrackPoint pcb.

Regarding any commercially available and technologically similar alternatives: I am not aware of any, to be honest. There exist promising hall-effect sensor modules with a sliding nub that might be usable, but I haven't gotten around on experimenting with them. They could be integrated in a pcb directly and would then have no issues with additional space requirements below the board.

Ray · 07 Apr 2017, 14:09

Menuhin wrote:
ramnes wrote:
Menuhin wrote: Majority of active DT people in general don't like 60%, they like those ultra big boards such as IBM F122, and they like vintage boards like Hall-effect boards.

Isn't it quite true?

I will consider member for example Khers - part of the minority.

It might be true that the majority is not very fond of 60%s in particular, but I would guess the majority here enjoys something smaller than a regular fullsize.
On the other hand, if you are looking for people who enjoy F122s and the like, DT is the place to go.

rominronin · 08 Apr 2017, 22:48

Updated the OP to better reflect the INTEREST CHECK status of the thread. Can you please state if you're interested in 1. the PCB, 2. the switch plate or 3. both. Please also state if you'd be happy with a plate with universal holes (so the same plate can support both MX and ALPs style switches.)

Thanks

rsbseb · 10 Apr 2017, 03:16

I have a bunch of MX Browns and this looks interesting to me. I am not a huge fan of standard full size boards for a number of reasons and I might be interested in a PCB and Plate

Nuum · 10 Apr 2017, 17:25

I'm intrigued! Depending on price I might get one.

Phenix · 10 Apr 2017, 22:21

I like the idea.
An trackpoint is interesting..

scottc · 10 Apr 2017, 23:43

I could be interested in either a PCB or PCB + plate depending on price.

rioc · 21 Jul 2017, 13:30

count me in...

also, with 2b, 3b, 4b & 5b there's gonna be an option for another 1u switch between 3b and 4b, right? or how is that thought out to be?

ideus · 21 Jul 2017, 16:57

This would be interesting, if you run a concurrent GB for appropriated key caps, otherwise, unless people are willing to use blank DSA sets, sourcing appropriate keys would be a night mare.

Phenix · 21 Jul 2017, 20:06

ideus wrote:This would be interesting, if you run a concurrent GB for appropriated key caps, otherwise, unless people are willing to use blank DSA sets, sourcing appropriate keys would be a night mare.

Why? If I saw it right e.g. A AEK cap set could suffice for alps. For most cherry users finding caps should be even easier, with custom cap sets..

Menuhin · 21 Jul 2017, 20:43

Phenix wrote:
ideus wrote:This would be interesting, if you run a concurrent GB for appropriated key caps, otherwise, unless people are willing to use blank DSA sets, sourcing appropriate keys would be a night mare.
Why? If I saw it right e.g. A AEK cap set could suffice for alps. For most cherry users finding caps should be even easier, with custom cap sets..

I think ideus is referring to using key caps on the "incorrect" row - as all cylindrical key cap series (e.g. Cherry, Gateron, Apple AEK, SA) have different profiles on different rows, when those spherical key cap series (e.g. DSA, G20(?)) have key caps of the same profile all rows.

Just to point out the obvious, if number row is R1, counting down to the row of XCVB as R4. In the example board in the photo, even if I assume R4 and R5 are of the same profile in the AEK I/II (which is not), quite a few key caps are from the "incorrect" row profile:
- alt/option keys at R3 are from R4/R5
- home and page-up at R2 are from R1
- end and page-down at R3 are from R2
- return at R5 is from R3

Spoiler:

Despite I really like the idea of Katana60, what is important to mention is that I have not seen R3 1.25u key caps from any of the key cap vendors (Cherry, Gateron, TaiHao, Signature Plastic, etc) and there are 4 of those R3 1.25u key caps in this layout.
Another small challenge is the 2u R5 key or 2u R5 spacebar key cap - if one doesn't think the 2.25u and 2.75u spacebar key caps as challenges of their own.

Phenix · 21 Jul 2017, 21:48

sure, the row profile wont match up 100%.. lets see if that's a problem once the GB finished and there are more Katanas out there..

Menuhin · 21 Jul 2017, 23:15

Phenix wrote: sure, the row profile wont match up 100%.. lets see if that's a problem once the GB finished and there are more Katanas out there..

If Katana60 is everywhere, then the story of split space bar caps will repeat: the popularity will drive manufacturers to help us get those R3 1.25u caps, like how GMK is creating the toolings for 2.75u and 2.25u space bar profile caps.

kalupa · 23 Jul 2017, 22:52

I'm interested in both pcb and plate

rominronin · 17 Aug 2017, 23:35

Finally, an update. Sit tight, it's a big one...

Compatibility
The last prototype came in and I think the board is ready. I spotted some overlaps which lead to some changes to the compatibility. The board will now support standard MX keysets primarily, and there is an AEKii keyset compatible layout also built in to the board. I have dropped the Matias keyset compatibility. Check it out the final compatibility on KLE:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/# ... 989bd6f36c

Or Here:

Spoiler:

Some filing is necessary...
To be fully compatible with a standard 60% case. Take a look at this image, where I overlayed the Katana60 layout with the standard PCB mount holes (suggested by the online plate-builder tool):

Hole number 3 in the middle is exactly under a switch. The problem is solved, with no issue, by filing the switch down a little:

http://imgur.com/a/FCNFF

Group buy announcement: There will be no group buy, but...
...instead, the PCB and plate will be available to buy from CandyKeys.com. I met David from CandyKeys at a meetup in Vienna and we discussed the project. He is as enthusiastic about the Katana60 project as I am, so I'm proud announce that we will be working together to bring the Katana60 to the community.

The Switch Plate
This is what it will look like. It will support all the layouts in the compatibility section above. It will be 1.5mm, and I believe it will be brushed steel (confirmation incoming).

Finally, Prices
We are awaiting final quotes from various places, but early indications point to favourable prices relative to existing 60% PCBs. This is where it helps to have CandyKeys on board, since they can afford to stock a larger quantity than we could expect to get in a GB, which heps us all!

More to follow in the comming days...

Nuum · 17 Aug 2017, 23:39

I'd really like to see this with the option of a symmetrical bottom row or at least as close as possible, even if that means it's not compatible to standard keysets.

Phenix · 25 Aug 2017, 22:16

Quick question, I missed about it: is it possible now (meaning: is there a cutout) for a trackpoint in the middle?

rominronin · 26 Aug 2017, 21:19

Hey Phenix.
I'm reluctant to go with trackopint support mainly because they are not reliably sourced.

But that being said, I will look into alternative pointer device integration for the future versions.