Origin of each country's QWERTY keyboard layout?

[prefab]

Hello!

I'm a recent convert to higher quality keyboards (Unicomp buckling spring in use at the moment, and a Filco with Cherry Brown switches on the way).

Altough I'm Norwegian I use the Swedish/Finnish-layout since it's almost the same and neither Unicomp or Filco make Norwegian layouts (not 100 % sure about Filco).
Actually, nowadays almost all new (cheap) keyboards sold in Norway are "All in one Scandinavian-style" with characters in different colours on the few keys that differ.

That brings me finally to my question:

Does anyone here know any history of how the different country's QWERTY-layouts came to be?
Also, why does only the US-layout have the small(er) Enter-key?

Thanks in advance for any knowledge on this!

[Minskleip]

ANSI return is not small, it's big.

[Grond]

You can find some info on wikipedia under QWERTY.
As for Italian layout, I can tell you that it was not originated from typewriters. Italian typewriters used to be QZERTY, but I've never seen any pc keyboard with that layout. Whoever designed the italian layout did a lousy job. The keyboard lacks accented caps letters such as Á È Ì Ò Ù, and at least one of them is largely used in Italian (È = it is).

[trax]

My country has probably the worst layout ever - Belgian Azerty.

A layout based on the French Azerty, which was made so when french people use typewrites the little hooks wont get stuck.
But most people in Belgium speak Dutch, yet we use a layout based of a French typewriter.
The French Azerty has all the French accents which I never use, so pointless.

Apart from 2 keys (symbols on different locations) there is still one big thing different between Belgian and French Azerty.

Our keyboards do not have Capslock but a Shiftlock instead,
this key acts like your holding down the shift button for all keys, not just the letter ones.

Which is good because the top, accent row has the accents as default, meaning that if you want to press a number (non-numpad) you need Shift or Shiftlock


I've never found a new Belgian Azerty mechanical keyboard so far, but I dont give a fuck, ANSI FTW.

[Culinia]

I don't care. I use Colemak!

haha, that's my advertisement done for today

PS Where I'm from (United Kingdom) there is a British Standard (BS 4822) for the Specification for keyboard allocation of graphic characters for data processing from 1994 (updated from Dec 1980) listed as £48, although beware since it has been

re-declared obsolescent for a further period as it is no longer relevant

LOL

[Findecanor]

I blame IBM and their Enhanced Keyboard.

Many old Swedish typewriters used QWERTY like US-ANSI keyboards but with the three letter Å Ä and Ö in weird places -- the location was not standardized. The shifted symbols on the number row were also not standardized.

[ripster]

PRC prefers ANSI.

So will you when China takes over the world.

[trax]

PRC prefers ANSI.

So will you when China takes over the world.

China is only taking over us, dw.

[kbdfr]

(...) But most people in Belgium speak Dutch, yet we use a layout based of a French typewriter.

Belgium has about 60% Dutch and 40% French speakers. Add the fact that the vehicular language of the Brussels-based EU institutions (next to English) is French.
As far as I know, ANSI keyboards are widely used in Dutch speaking regions and countries.

I've never found a new Belgian Azerty mechanical keyboard so far, but I dont give a fuck, ANSI FTW.

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie ... 0965372340

[trax]

(...) But most people in Belgium speak Dutch, yet we use a layout based of a French typewriter.

Belgium has about 60% Dutch and 40% French speakers. Add the fact that the vehicular language of the Brussels-based EU institutions (next to English) is French.
As far as I know, ANSI keyboards are widely used in Dutch speaking regions and countries.

I've never found a new Belgian Azerty mechanical keyboard so far, but I dont give a fuck, ANSI FTW.

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie ... 0965372340

The vehicular language is French because every Flemming learns French, but lets not get into the discussion about which side of the country is superior (as its clearly obvious).

Not a lot of people use ANSI boards, just gamers and heavy PC users do.
Most "normal" people use AZERTY since its a standard (and also the only thing sold in the shops, used in schools.)

Nice found on that board btw, but I count cherry boards as "old".

[Gilgam]

The vehicular language is French because every Flemming learns French, but lets not get into the discussion about which side of the country is superior (as its clearly obvious).

WHOOOO here comes the troll

I often go in Belgium both sides, and i really don't undertand that hate between flemish and wallons. for me this is one of the most stupid thing in Europe, both nationalism mixed with "ancients griefs".
So claming one side is superior si so ...


Back to topic AZERTY is the famous way for french not to do like the others (a speciality ). I don't think it's efficient, but you have direct access to many french accents. I think it'll suit to italians too (éàè are direct access).
pero dovrei provare il mio azerty tastiera in italiano ...

[kbdfr]

(...) The vehicular language is French because every Flemming learns French, but lets not get into the discussion about which side of the country is superior (as its clearly obvious).

(...) I count cherry boards as "old".

[Grond]

I don't think it's efficient, but you have direct access to many french accents. I think it'll suit to italians too (éàè are direct access).
pero dovrei provare il mio azerty tastiera in italiano ...

You don't have direct access to ì and ù though. Also, you have to hold shift for numbers... this looks like a hassle for tenkeyless keyboards.
I think they should have used more dead keys when they designed the layouts. I mean the two accents, dieresis, ˜, etc. Maybe that way we could have a single layout for several languages.

[JBert]

Typewriters didn't have dead keys, AFAIK.

[kbdfr]

Dead keys for accents are definitely not an option in French keyboards. Those accentuated characters with a dedicated key are not somewhat weird and seldom, they come very often.

It is possible to access ì and ù on a French AZERTY keyboard, because the "accent grave" is located (and printed) on the è/7 key.
And you can write the German umlauts (ä, ö, ü) with the "tréma" key.

Typing French on a QWERTZ keyboard is a curse, typing German on an AZERTY keyboard is easy (admittedly except for the "ß").
So I would say AZERTY is the most versatile (standard) keyboard.

[kbdfr]

Typewriters didn't have dead keys, AFAIK.

They definitely had.

[JBert]

Typing French on a QWERTZ keyboard is a curse, typing German on an AZERTY keyboard is easy (admittedly except for the "ß").
So I would say AZERTY is the most versatile (standard) keyboard.

I counter that with Colemak Multilingual.

I prefer liberal use of the AltGr key if the numerals can be accessed without Shift.

Typewriters didn't have dead keys, AFAIK.

They definitely had.

Well, then I definately learned something today. Got any Internet sources for that one? The mechanics sound interesting.

[Gilgam]

You don't have direct access to ì and ù though.

the ù is direct access and the ì as kbdfr told is altgr 7 then i (i just dscovered it today thanks ).
But the shift for the numbers is indeed quite an hassle.
This must be why tenkeyless azerty are not really successful.

AZERTY one layout to rule them all, Napoleon come back !!!!


I never thought i would say such a thing one day

[Gilgam]

I counter that with Colemak Multilingual.

I didn't knew that one (colemak multilingual. Looks interesting but clearly english focused. One bépo (french "optimized" layout ) most keys are on the home row. It also have an internationel version but you lack the "less finger's moves" thing too i imagine.

There must be specific layout for each language ...

[Grond]

Typewriters didn't have dead keys, AFAIK.

I don't know about that, but anyway, as I stated before, italian layout does NOT originate from typewriters (that used to be QZERTY). What about other languages? Are your layouts the same as typewriter ones?

[Ekaros]

Typing French on a QWERTZ keyboard is a curse, typing German on an AZERTY keyboard is easy (admittedly except for the "ß").
So I would say AZERTY is the most versatile (standard) keyboard.

I counter that with Colemak Multilingual.

I prefer liberal use of the AltGr key if the numerals can be accessed without Shift.

I throw in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyboard_l ... ltilingual

Or does colemak multilingual support Sami? ;D

[Lustique]

Has somebody here tried Neo?

(V) (;,,;) (V)

[RC-1140]

Yay, Neo ftw!
Actually I'm typing neo atm. Typing never felt so smooth before. Especially the third and fourth layer are useful.

See my Neo thread on GH for more information.

[Findecanor]

They definitely had.

I thought that you typed something like ' key, Backspace, e in succession.

[kbdfr]

I knew all COLEMAN, DVORAK and BEPO supporters would come along. That's why I had chosen my words carefully:

So I would say AZERTY is the most versatile (standard) keyboard.

[kbdfr]

Typewriters didn't have dead keys, AFAIK.

They definitely had.

Well, then I definately learned something today. Got any Internet sources for that one? The mechanics sound interesting.

I didn't need any Internet sources for that, I learned typing on a mechanical typewriter (that was a few decades ago).

But here you are:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typewriter
dead key – describes a key that when typed, does not advance the typing position, thus allowing another character to be overstruck on top of the original character. This typically was used to combine diacritical marks with letters they modified (e.g. è can be generated by first pressing ` and then e).

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typenhebel ... e#Tottaste
Tottasten sind besondere Tasten, die keine Schrittschaltung auslösen. Um die Schrittschaltung zu unterdrücken, fehlt bei mechanischen Typenhebelschreibmaschinen an dem betreffenden Typenhebel die Schaltnase, sodass der hinter dem Segment liegende Schaltbügel nicht bewegt wird. Gebraucht wird eine Tottaste für Akzentuierungen (Accent aigu, Accent grave, Accent circonflexe). Dazu schlägt man zunächst die Akzent- bzw. Tottaste an und als nächstes den zu akzentuierenden Buchstaben, der wie gewohnt eine Schrittschaltung auslöst.

http://www.gastronomica.be/fr/pg/pg-004_2_3.html
(text is explicitly copyright protected, so please read there under "touche morte".)

[kbdfr]

They definitely had.

I thought that you typed something like ' key, Backspace, e in succession.

That is something you had to do for example on a German typewriter to type (or rather simulate) the French ç (comma, backspace, c). No need for that with the accents generated with the use of a dead key.

[Lustique]

Yay, Neo ftw!
Actually I'm typing neo atm. Typing never felt so smooth before. Especially the third and fourth layer are useful.

See my Neo thread on GH for more information.

So you think it's worth the effort? Currently I'm already struggling to learn QWERTZ (touch-typing-wise) and I think if I learned Neo I could not type on (the keyboards of) normal PCs properly anymore.

Sorry, but I'm a little at daggers drawn with GH. Somehow I think either the search engine there detests me or I'm too stupid to use it.

[Grond]

Sorry, but I'm a little at daggers drawn with GH. Somehow I think either the search engine there detests me or I'm too stupid to use it.

The search there just sucks.

[ripster]

Even the search by user is borked.

Not sure what the problem is. Vbulletin isn't usually THAT bad.