(SOLVED) How to repair a model m membrane
- idollar
- i$
- Location: Germany (Frankfurt area)
- Main keyboard: IBM F or M
- Favorite switch: BS
- DT Pro Member: -
EDIT - the title of the tread has been changed to indicate that the process to repair a membrane is described latter
------
Hi,
For the impatient:
I received an model M. It was REALLY dirty.
The membrane is broken (check the pictures later).
What is the best way to repair it ? And yes, the membrane is broken. One cannot see it, but the multimeter does not lie.
The long version follows:
I dismounted it, clear the case, clear the key-caps and start with the bolt-mod.
I removed the rivets. I took off the membrane. I cleaned it.
I drilled the holes and mounted back.
The problems started here.
There were a number of key-sets that did not work:
set1 - 1,q,a,z,caps-lock
set2 - g,b,h,n
I tested the keyboard with a different controller that I knew to be working. I had the problems.
I tested the controller of the keyboard under repair with a working keyboard. I worked.
My conclusion: The membranes are broken.
I dismantle the keyboard again and check the membrane. All the faulty keys are on the same line. I checked the conductivity between the edge of the membrane and it is broken.
This is the point where it is broken. You cannot visually see it. But it is broken.
Thanks in advance.
i$
------
Hi,
For the impatient:
I received an model M. It was REALLY dirty.
The membrane is broken (check the pictures later).
What is the best way to repair it ? And yes, the membrane is broken. One cannot see it, but the multimeter does not lie.
The long version follows:
I dismounted it, clear the case, clear the key-caps and start with the bolt-mod.
I removed the rivets. I took off the membrane. I cleaned it.
I drilled the holes and mounted back.
The problems started here.
There were a number of key-sets that did not work:
set1 - 1,q,a,z,caps-lock
set2 - g,b,h,n
I tested the keyboard with a different controller that I knew to be working. I had the problems.
I tested the controller of the keyboard under repair with a working keyboard. I worked.
My conclusion: The membranes are broken.
I dismantle the keyboard again and check the membrane. All the faulty keys are on the same line. I checked the conductivity between the edge of the membrane and it is broken.
This is the point where it is broken. You cannot visually see it. But it is broken.
Thanks in advance.
i$
Last edited by idollar on 17 Nov 2014, 00:00, edited 3 times in total.
- macmakkara
- Location: Finland
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Unicomp sells New sets of membranes if dont find way to fix those.
- Muirium
- µ
- Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
- Main keyboard: HHKB Type-S with Bluetooth by Hasu
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- DT Pro Member: µ
Yup. Ask them for assistance to pick the right one.
http://pckeyboard.com/page/Misc/MEM
Otherwise, silver ink?
http://pckeyboard.com/page/Misc/MEM
Otherwise, silver ink?
- cookie
- Location: Hamburg, Germany
- Main keyboard: HHKB Pro 2
- Main mouse: MX Master
- Favorite switch: Topre
- DT Pro Member: -
There you go: http://www.exp-tech.de/Zubehoer/Sonstig ... ApE08P8HAQ
- idollar
- i$
- Location: Germany (Frankfurt area)
- Main keyboard: IBM F or M
- Favorite switch: BS
- DT Pro Member: -
Thank you! Shipping cost will be as much as the keyboardmacmakkara wrote: ↑Unicomp sells New sets of membranes if dont find way to fix those.
But it is good to know that I can play with the membrane. There is always a backup solution.
- idollar
- i$
- Location: Germany (Frankfurt area)
- Main keyboard: IBM F or M
- Favorite switch: BS
- DT Pro Member: -
Thank you. Great !cookie wrote: ↑There you go: http://www.exp-tech.de/Zubehoer/Sonstig ... ApE08P8HAQ
- cookie
- Location: Hamburg, Germany
- Main keyboard: HHKB Pro 2
- Main mouse: MX Master
- Favorite switch: Topre
- DT Pro Member: -
It is actually conductive paint, but I think it is possible to mix it with glue!
And lets be honest, these sheets are only relevant because of the Model M, otherwise noone would care
And lets be honest, these sheets are only relevant because of the Model M, otherwise noone would care
- Muirium
- µ
- Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
- Main keyboard: HHKB Type-S with Bluetooth by Hasu
- Main mouse: Apple Magic Mouse
- Favorite switch: Gotta Try 'Em All
- DT Pro Member: µ
I was thinking along those lines a while ago:ramnes wrote: ↑Wait, we could do a NKRO model M with diodes and that glue, no?
http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/plan ... t6763.html
Then I got more heavily into Model Fs…
- Touch_It
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I used this from Radio Shack. Cheap and effective. Just be careful with how thick you put it on. Personally I used a paper clip to apply it. Wasn't very hard.
http://www.radioshack.com/bare-conducti ... 60267.html
http://www.radioshack.com/bare-conducti ... 60267.html
- idollar
- i$
- Location: Germany (Frankfurt area)
- Main keyboard: IBM F or M
- Favorite switch: BS
- DT Pro Member: -
Thank you.
I have tried copper tape and ... it did not work.
It does not conduct on the side with the glue so I had to solder it. It eventually worked but the cable is not flexible enough and after doing back all my screws it broke.
Conclusion: use the Bare Conductive. Forget about the copper tape.
I guess that now my only option is unicomp and their expensive shipping cost
I have tried copper tape and ... it did not work.
It does not conduct on the side with the glue so I had to solder it. It eventually worked but the cable is not flexible enough and after doing back all my screws it broke.
Conclusion: use the Bare Conductive. Forget about the copper tape.
I guess that now my only option is unicomp and their expensive shipping cost
- idollar
- i$
- Location: Germany (Frankfurt area)
- Main keyboard: IBM F or M
- Favorite switch: BS
- DT Pro Member: -
I was very impatient and I could not wait for the paint to arrive, so yes. I went to the local store and when I saw the copper plate I thought that I could manage with it.
It actually worked until I mounted the keyboard back. It then broke as it was too rigid.
The process was difficult. Actually it was VERY difficult. As soon as heat was applied to circuit in the membrane the conductive line was destroyed. The membrane surface survived without problems. The trick was to be fast enough with the soldering. This is why I had to follow the lines in the circuit until I managed to get it working.
As I said above, it all worked until I had to bend the membrane edge to get it in the controller. It then broke. I shouted in my desperation. The full process took several hours. Very frustrating.
It actually worked until I mounted the keyboard back. It then broke as it was too rigid.
The process was difficult. Actually it was VERY difficult. As soon as heat was applied to circuit in the membrane the conductive line was destroyed. The membrane surface survived without problems. The trick was to be fast enough with the soldering. This is why I had to follow the lines in the circuit until I managed to get it working.
As I said above, it all worked until I had to bend the membrane edge to get it in the controller. It then broke. I shouted in my desperation. The full process took several hours. Very frustrating.
- idollar
- i$
- Location: Germany (Frankfurt area)
- Main keyboard: IBM F or M
- Favorite switch: BS
- DT Pro Member: -
I have purchased a new membrane from unicomp. I will anyhow give a try to the pen that I have also ordered with the membrane that I have "destroyed". I will keep you posted on how I waste my money
- idollar
- i$
- Location: Germany (Frankfurt area)
- Main keyboard: IBM F or M
- Favorite switch: BS
- DT Pro Member: -
The tape that I used did not have conductive adhedive. That's for sure.sean4star wrote: ↑I could have sworn hasu used copper tape to mod a Model M membrane...I have tried copper tape and ... it did not work.
Could it be that the tape you used did not have conductive adhesive?
I have ordered new membrane but I am still trying to repair them. At present I am using the conductive paint.
The paint works, but the resistance is significant. I am getting from 0.2 to 0.5 kohms. I mounted back the keyboard but the CRT key reports a wear key. I am guessing that this is because of the high resistance.
I plan to disasemble the keyboard, once more, today and check it again. I will take some pictures to share them.
i$
- idollar
- i$
- Location: Germany (Frankfurt area)
- Main keyboard: IBM F or M
- Favorite switch: BS
- DT Pro Member: -
SOLUTION - HOWTO with pictures
All,
As promised here is my result of fixing a couple of membranes.
I will try to summarize all the process, for those that are interested to have a single reference.
The structure of the post follows (in two different posts due to the limitation in the number of images to include in each post):
1.- Why where the membranes were broken ?
IBM model M 1391401: I procured this keyboard in ebay, USA. The seller told me that some keys were not working. He told me that the following keys were failing. I attach the text where the failure was described;
The problem that I found (initially) is described in some pictures that were in the previous posts:
IBM model M 1396790: I procured this keyboard in ebay, Europe, Germany. The previous owner drop beer in the keyboard. I am not sure when did it happen. I do not know how long the membrane was exposed to the beer.
2.- First attempt and ERROR (do not try this !)
Initially, I tried to use copper tape to fix the membrane. The tape that I used had some glue on one side. This glue was not conductive. Thus I had to solder it to the conductive line in the membrane. This was extremely difficult. I eventually managed to do it.
I spent various hours, It initially worked but as soon as I put together the keyboard, the soldering broke in the part of the membrane that bended to the controller.
Following I attach some pictures. The result does not look very nice. But as I said, it was not easy.
3.- Second attempt – Bare Conductive Electric Paint
I got it following the recommendation of "cookie"
It is also important to notice the the resistance is significant as explained later in the post.
3a.- IBM model M 1396790
I started by replacing the copper with the ink. The resulting resistance was approximately 0.4k ohms.
In order to access the conductive line, I had to scratch the plastic protection on top. This plastic is only present in this section. If you have to do it, please do it gently. If you go to far you will destroy the conductive line. If you do note scratch enough you will not arrive to it. Always use a tester before "painting" on top. You may not have conductivity at both ends.
I checked the conductivity and I had to repair other sections on the membrane:
I attach also images from the different membrane layers. You will notice that I had to write down the keys.
3b.- IBM model M 1391401
I had some non-working keys; "g", "h", "b", "n", "left-ALT", "space", "0-num_pad", ".-num_pad" . I found the following errors in the membrane that I corrected:
I attach pictures of the marked membranes. Note also that I marked the points that are not used in the keyboard. I also wrote down the keycode:
--> continues in a second post. The software in the forum does not allow to include more pictures
All,
As promised here is my result of fixing a couple of membranes.
I will try to summarize all the process, for those that are interested to have a single reference.
The structure of the post follows (in two different posts due to the limitation in the number of images to include in each post):
- 1.- Why were the membranes broken ?
2.- First attempt and error
3.- Second attempt – Bare Conductive Electric Paint- 3a.- IBM model M 1396790
3b.- IBM model M 1391401
- 3a.- IBM model M 1396790
1.- Why where the membranes were broken ?
IBM model M 1391401: I procured this keyboard in ebay, USA. The seller told me that some keys were not working. He told me that the following keys were failing. I attach the text where the failure was described;
At the time of procurement, I had no experience with IBM model M but I found repairing the keyboard an interesting challengeAs for the non-working keys,
esc ` 1 tab q a z shift lctrl lalt g h + ] ' enter rshift rctl ralt
prtscrn scrllock pause home end uparrow leftarrow kypd+ kypdenter
kypd0 kypd.
The problem that I found (initially) is described in some pictures that were in the previous posts:
Spoiler:
2.- First attempt and ERROR (do not try this !)
Initially, I tried to use copper tape to fix the membrane. The tape that I used had some glue on one side. This glue was not conductive. Thus I had to solder it to the conductive line in the membrane. This was extremely difficult. I eventually managed to do it.
I spent various hours, It initially worked but as soon as I put together the keyboard, the soldering broke in the part of the membrane that bended to the controller.
Following I attach some pictures. The result does not look very nice. But as I said, it was not easy.
Spoiler:
I got it following the recommendation of "cookie"
The ink takes some time to dry. It will become conductive only after it gets solid.cookie wrote: ↑There you go: http://www.exp-tech.de/Zubehoer/Sonstig ... ApE08P8HAQ
It is also important to notice the the resistance is significant as explained later in the post.
3a.- IBM model M 1396790
I started by replacing the copper with the ink. The resulting resistance was approximately 0.4k ohms.
In order to access the conductive line, I had to scratch the plastic protection on top. This plastic is only present in this section. If you have to do it, please do it gently. If you go to far you will destroy the conductive line. If you do note scratch enough you will not arrive to it. Always use a tester before "painting" on top. You may not have conductivity at both ends.
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
I had some non-working keys; "g", "h", "b", "n", "left-ALT", "space", "0-num_pad", ".-num_pad" . I found the following errors in the membrane that I corrected:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Last edited by idollar on 18 Nov 2014, 11:35, edited 5 times in total.
- idollar
- i$
- Location: Germany (Frankfurt area)
- Main keyboard: IBM F or M
- Favorite switch: BS
- DT Pro Member: -
--> second part of the post. The software in the forum does not allow to include more pictures
I also attach other pictures from the process:
I also changed the LEDs with blue ones;
4.- Conclusions
My recommendations to repair a model m membrane follow:
a) Do not use copper tape
b) Use conductive ink
c) The conductive ink is not as conductive as the copper, but the keybard will still work. At least with the amount that I added documented in the pictures above.
Regards
i$
I also attach other pictures from the process:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
My recommendations to repair a model m membrane follow:
a) Do not use copper tape
b) Use conductive ink
c) The conductive ink is not as conductive as the copper, but the keybard will still work. At least with the amount that I added documented in the pictures above.
Regards
i$
- matt3o
- -[°_°]-
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-
- Location: Houston, Texas
- Main keyboard: IBM Bigfoot
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I bought some silver conductive paint a few months ago that came in a syringe, which allowed me to lay down a thick bead of paint on the membrane. I don't remember the exact resistance that resulted, but I'm pretty sure it was under 100 ohms. The resistance does indeed go down as the paint dries.
- beltet
- Location: Stockholm Sweden
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good work! looks better then the soldering of copper tape .
btw, what resistance would be to great? And what would happend? Doesn't the controller recognise the signal?
btw, what resistance would be to great? And what would happend? Doesn't the controller recognise the signal?
- idollar
- i$
- Location: Germany (Frankfurt area)
- Main keyboard: IBM F or M
- Favorite switch: BS
- DT Pro Member: -
This was actually my worry. But the keyboard works like a charm.beltet wrote: ↑btw, what resistance would be to great? And what would happend? Doesn't the controller recognise the signal?
One shall be carefull with the tester. If you are looking for conductivitiy, it will not beep !
-
- Location: Austria, Europe
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This resistance thing surprised me quite a lot, too, when I did my first bolt mod (not out of fun, but because somebody's drink of choice shortened some paths on the matrix), but if you measure it across some perfectly functioning original traces, you'll find that the original conductive paint has quite a high resistance, too. I think it was something like 100 ohms for ~20cm, but that's just from memory. Enough to stop the continuity check on my multimeter to work.
- Madhias
- BS TORPE
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Very interesting, and a straight forward and easy solution!