Leopold FC 660C

[matt3o]

I finally received my Leopold 660C with Topre switches. It came to me through 2 proxies (one in Korea one in US) and it ended up costing me approx 190 euros which is not bad for a Topre board.

The keyboard is well built and it feels solid. It's slightly smaller than a Filco and a bit lighter. The USB cable is gold plated.



Keys/Legends are fine apart for the outrageous win8 logo.



In the box were included some extra keys but I think they are part of an initial promotion, it should just come with the control/caps-lock replacement.



There's rubber on the feet, which is a very nice addition.



To my great surprise and pleasure FN+arrow-keys perform home/end/pg.up/pg.down. This is not printed on front of the keys like the other legends for the FN layer. I was considering hacking the 660c with a Teensy to adjust the FN layer, but I must say that it's almost perfect as it is.

Other nice addition is the FN+Q that inverts the FN layer on the ESC key (`~ instead of ESC). When the lock is activated a red LED on the INS key lights up.

INS/DEL keys are slightly too far to the right. The distance between \| and DEL is not standard and forces a longer travel with your hand to reach it (compared to a Filco). This is a negligible annoyance of an otherwise great keyboard. Also the usefulness of the INS key is disputable, but I know people who can't live without it, so...

Topre switches are great. The sound and feel of plate mounted tropres is mesmerizing and a real pleasure to type on. My main board is a Filco with MX Blue and I love loud and clicky boards, but this Leopold I'm afraid will dethronize my beloved Filco.

There's a dip switch to make some fine tuning to the layout. Apart from the control/caps switch, you can also invert win/alt (useful for mac users) and place the FN to the left in lieu of the win key.

What I really would have liked is FN+backspace = DEL... Also FN instead of capslock would be nice... but it's just a matter of personal preference. I think I'll soon open it and see how hard it is to hack. With very little additions to the FN layer this could be easily one of my preferred keyboards.

If you have any question don't hesitate to ask.

[Muirium]

Very nice!

As a Mac user, I wholly support the Fn+arrow mappings. Been using those for ten years already. Perfect!

But I'm completely addicted to having the Command key on either side of the spacebar. I use it almost as much as left Command, which is countless times a day. Looks like there's no way to configure that out of the box. OS X can swap the Alt and Ctrl keys but can't tell the difference between left and right pairs. (I'm not sure the keyboard will send different signals for them so it is possible to make a custom keymap.) But I hear good things about this little Leopold's hackability, so perhaps there is!

Control-Option-Command-Space-Command-Option-Function would be my preferred arrangement of keys down there. Where Command = Windows and Option = Alt in translation. Any way to achieve this is good news to me.

Anyway, very appealing keyboard this. Love those rubber feet. Truly a worthy addition to the Topre world. Thanks for the pictures and details.

[matt3o]

I think you can remap via software, but I agree that an hardware solution would be better.

The keyboard is screwless, so I'm a bit worried at opening it, but looking at the internals on KBMania it seems easy to hack, so I'm definitely going to look inside sooner or later.

[Muirium]

How do the caps feel, by the way? Those colours look PBT-a-licious.

And how heavy is the keyboard? Interested to see how it matches up against an HHKB, density wise. I'm of the strange school of thought that less is more, except when it comes to weight.

[matt3o]

Keys are ALL PBT (spacebar included) and they feel great. Smooth but slightly grainy (like most of the PBT I tried).

Weight is 717gr. A Filco is 970gr. The keyboard feels pretty solid overall but I bet a Realforce is bulkier

[Muirium]

All PBT. Oh yes!

An HHKB is 530g, and as small as small can get. So I'd say this is right around the same density wise.

Goodness me if Leopold were to make a white one, or just start selling them in Europe!

[matt3o]

consider that HHKB is pcb mounted, this leopold is plate mounted. overall it should feel heavier.

[Jmneuv]

thanks for the review, remains an interesting board;

But when oh when will one manufacturer step up and make a real programmable board - i mean this dipswitching is halfway there, no? Just a few more steps ..
There's mouse software more complex than this would require.
Because i think if one starts, the others will follow and it could become a kind of standard.

[webwit]

I can't get over the stupid right end of this keyboard. Up arrow key should have been underneath Enter, and a column of keys to the right instead of those 2 floating keys and wasted space.

[matt3o]

I can't get over the stupid right end of this keyboard. Up arrow key should have been underneath Enter, and a column of keys to the right instead of those 2 floating keys and wasted space.

I guess that is to keep a standard size for the right shift. I agree with you that the layout is weird, but it's a darn good keyboard nonetheless, actually the only topre with compact layout and arrow keys (excluding the overpriced hhkb js edition).

[Halvar]

Ins and Del are exactly where you expect them from a standard layout. I use Del a lot, and even Ins quite a lot in Total Commander, so I actually like that. Seems to make getting used to the keyboard very easy. Same for the arrow keys, if you're used to the big right shift, a cursor key under the Enter key can be very annoying. I had that on the noppoo choc.

[Muirium]

thanks for the review, remains an interesting board;

But when oh when will one manufacturer step up and make a real programmable board - i mean this dipswitching is halfway there, no? Just a few more steps ..
There's mouse software more complex than this would require.
Because i think if one starts, the others will follow and it could become a kind of standard.

Well, there's the Ducky Mini. Its programmable layer looks pretty nifty. Or do you mean a completely reprogrammable keyboard? User layers are certainly the next step after a block of DIP switches on the back, but full programmability is complex enough for users to get their heads around that it may always be up to us.

Ins and Del are exactly where you expect them from a standard layout. I use Del a lot, and even Ins quite a lot in Total Commander, so I actually like that. Seems to make getting used to the keyboard very easy. Same for the arrow keys, if you're used to the big right shift, a cursor key under the Enter key can be very annoying. I had that on the noppoo choc.

Yes, there's definitely logic to those floating keys. I don't honestly ever use either of them*, myself. But I've nothing against them being there for those who do. The overall effect on the layout isn't as awkward as, say, the Filco Minila. But then what exactly is!



*Delete is Fn+Backspace for me, and does Insert even do anything on a Mac? It used to be the Help key, if I remember, and may be the Fn key on the fullsize Apple keyboards now. I stick to compacts.

[matt3o]

I opened the keyboard. Very easy but beware of the tiny screw under the QC sticker.

The controller is on a daughter board and easy to replace.



The connector has 20-pins. Next step is to find a replacement for that (male would be better, but also the female might work if you build a small daughter board with teensy+female connector).



Definitely hackerable!

[Trev]

...
Yes, there's definitely logic to those floating keys. I don't honestly ever use either of them*, myself. But I've nothing against them being there for those who do. The overall effect on the layout isn't as awkward as, say, the Filco Minila. But then what exactly is!



*Delete is Fn+Backspace for me, and does Insert even do anything on a Mac? It used to be the Help key, if I remember, and may be the Fn key on the fullsize Apple keyboards now. I stick to compacts.

Never mind the strange keys, they messed with the default staggering which everyone typing on QWERTY has decades of muscle memory for. A completely unforgivable sin. Garbage keyboard, IMO

Very cool that the Leopold can be hacked.

[JBert]

Never mind the strange keys, they messed with the default staggering which everyone typing on QWERTY has decades of muscle memory for. A completely unforgivable sin. Garbage keyboard, IMO

Very cool that the Leopold can be hacked.

It looks like regular staggering to me? Aren't you confusing this Leopold keyboard with the Filco Minila?

[matt3o]

he is referring to Minila, which has a terrible staggering.

Leopold has default staggering

[Trev]

Never mind the strange keys, they messed with the default staggering which everyone typing on QWERTY has decades of muscle memory for. A completely unforgivable sin. Garbage keyboard, IMO

Very cool that the Leopold can be hacked.

It looks like regular staggering to me? Aren't you confusing this Leopold keyboard with the Filco Minila?

I was referring to the Minila (after seeing that photo Muirium posted)

[Muirium]

Yup. The difference between this Leopold and that particular Filco is truly night and day.

But guess which one is readily available in Europe? Argh!

[Muirium]

I'm currently beguiled by this USB/PS2 to Bluetooth module for wireless keyboard conversions. This is it stripped down and put into action inside a Model M. Seems to have great potential. Now of course I'm wondering about putting it in a Topre.

One USB host port supporting most standard USB HID Keyboards (max current 120mA)

Capacitative keyboards draw more power than most. I remember reading that Hasu's HHKB Bluetooth hack ran for hours on a charge instead of days. But 120mA sounds pretty good. According to this:

Per the HHKB Pro 2 specs (which were conveniently a lot easier to find), the keyboard draws a max of 100 mA, and 30 mA during normal operation. The max draw is a lot higher because it assumes you’re using the built-in USB hub and have other devices connected to it. With no devices attached, the keyboard’s draw is 30 mA

A Bluetooth HHKB and presumably other Topre board mods could be within reach. So, matt3o, what's the power draw like on this Leopold? Does it say on a sticker?

[matt3o]

I can't find any info regarding power consumption on the sticker or on the box, but it seems very similar to the HHKB in the inside, I guess 30mA is close to reality. I'm going to put a teensy inside (I already bought all the components) I'll test power consumption with the custom controller in place.

I agree that a Topre wireless would be great but we need a more solid design, considering that a logitech lasts for months on a single charge I'd expect at least one weeks from a custom controller.

[Trev]

The stock HHKB setup draws far more power due to the onboard USB hub. An iPad mini will happily power the chunky Realforce TKL for a long time, but can't even initialize the HHKB. A shame given the portable form factor.

...
I agree that a Topre wireless would be great but we need a more solid design, considering that a logitech lasts for months on a single charge I'd expect at least one weeks from a custom controller.

Plenty of room in the HHKB and Leopold for a larger/thin Li-on pack, no? Generally manufacturers go small on the pack to cut costs, except for the big battery in Matias boards.

[Muirium]

Absolutely! The beancounters aren't invited to this hack.

I'd love to see some pictures of the inside space in this Leopold, and indeed an HHKB, to get a sense of what volume there is to play with for a Teensy, a Bluetooth board and a battery. The Teensy is definitely worthwhile in its own right, but just imagine that lot working together. Dream keyboard.

[matt3o]

there's enough room in the leopold for teensy+bluetooth module+power managment board. I have all of them and they are all pretty small. I also have a 1000mA li-po battery and it fits as well. Don't know about a 2000 mA one.

The solution is not to use a bigger battery but to make the right choice of components (and very well written firmware). For example the teensy 3 works at 3v, it might draw less power overall. Or we could downvolt/downclock a teensy 2.

Also the power module is very important. I have an half good one but I'd like to test this one https://www.sparkfun.com/products/11378 that has integrated bluetooth and power management.

[Muirium]

You're way ahead of me, then! Looks like a sterling piece of kit. Could definitely see this and a battery fitting into the thin but wide spaces inside of keyboards:

I wonder about the Bluetooth signal strength with these mods, though. My Apple Bluetooth keyboard has a long plastic window along the lower back to expose its antenna through the Faraday cage of its metal housing:

We're talking about plastic cased keyboards here. But I do wonder what passes for antennas at all with these chips. Do they have pins to hook something up? Bluetooth always works better with more signal. Crowded old 2.4 GHz is no place to be, otherwise.

[matt3o]

You're way ahead of me, then! Looks like a sterling piece of kit. Could definitely see this and a battery fitting into the thin but wide spaces inside of keyboards:

I have a slightly smaller bluetooth module, I don't think the plastic case would be a problem for signal strength. Even if we are going to halve the range it would be 5m anyway.

I made some research and it seems that a 1000mA battery could last for approx 30 hours of continued use. That might translate into 2/2.5 days of standard usage.

Also, there would be the ultra low power consumption Bluetooth 4, but it needs special dongles of course.

[Muirium]

Seeing as the current generation iPad is my main target for such a mod, Bluetooth 4 is just perfect. Got a mix of Bluetooth 1 and 2 computers to try with too.

I expect the Topre capacitative switches (or rather whatever the name is for the way they are scanned) will be the leading power hog. So while good component choices always matter, the limiting factor for battery life will be battery size. One way to boost that is the trick Apple uses to fill the iPad: batteries wired in parallel for pure capacity.

Though I'm happy to be proven wrong if cunning parts and firmware really do make an impact.

You're thinking of charging over USB, I presume? With backwards compatibility for computers with USB but no Bluetooth?

[matt3o]

Though I'm happy to be proven wrong if cunning parts and firmware really do make an impact.

I think the firmware is very important. I think we can squeeze a 10-15% out of the battery just from the software, might be wrong...

Also like I said the power module is very important. Some have added circuits to read battery status for example, very nice to have but they draw power.

You're thinking of charging over USB, I presume? With backwards compatibility for computers with USB but no Bluetooth?

Yes, the USB drives both power and data.

[Muirium]

Very true. The only power warning anyone ever truly listens to is when your keyboard dies right in the mid…

[matt3o]

lsusb -v output

Code: Select all

Bus 003 Device 005: ID 0853:0134 Topre Corporation 
Device Descriptor:
  bLength                18
  bDescriptorType         1
  bcdUSB               2.00
  bDeviceClass            0 (Defined at Interface level)
  bDeviceSubClass         0 
  bDeviceProtocol         0 
  bMaxPacketSize0         8
  idVendor           0x0853 Topre Corporation
  idProduct          0x0134 
  bcdDevice            0.01
  iManufacturer           1 LEOPOLD
  iProduct                2 Mini Keyboard
  iSerial                 0 
  bNumConfigurations      1
  Configuration Descriptor:
    bLength                 9
    bDescriptorType         2
    wTotalLength           34
    bNumInterfaces          1
    bConfigurationValue     1
    iConfiguration          0 
    bmAttributes         0xa0
      (Bus Powered)
      Remote Wakeup
    MaxPower              100mA
    Interface Descriptor:
      bLength                 9
      bDescriptorType         4
      bInterfaceNumber        0
      bAlternateSetting       0
      bNumEndpoints           1
      bInterfaceClass         3 Human Interface Device
      bInterfaceSubClass      1 Boot Interface Subclass
      bInterfaceProtocol      1 Keyboard
      iInterface              4 Keyboard
        HID Device Descriptor:
          bLength                 9
          bDescriptorType        33
          bcdHID               1.11
          bCountryCode            0 Not supported
          bNumDescriptors         1
          bDescriptorType        34 Report
          wDescriptorLength      65
         Report Descriptors: 
           ** UNAVAILABLE **
      Endpoint Descriptor:
        bLength                 7
        bDescriptorType         5
        bEndpointAddress     0x81  EP 1 IN
        bmAttributes            3
          Transfer Type            Interrupt
          Synch Type               None
          Usage Type               Data
        wMaxPacketSize     0x0008  1x 8 bytes
        bInterval              10
Device Status:     0x0000
  (Bus Powered)

MaxPower is set to 100mA (the same as a Filco), which is pretty standard for a USB device. real power consumption should be way lower than that.

[RC-1140]

I so want one of these. The layout seems much more suitable for my usage, it's not as expensive as a Topre, and it looks great. But even though it's cheaper I still can't afford it.