Leopold FC 660C

[Muirium]

I so want one of these. The layout seems much more suitable for my usage, it's not as expensive as a Topre, and it looks great. But even though it's cheaper I still can't afford it.

Technically I can't either, but maybe by the time it actually shows up here we'll be in luck!

[matt3o]

I've found the connectors.

Male: http://uk.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Hiro ... vVdCJoOw==
Female: http://uk.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Hiro ... pyo91tQ%3d

For capacitive switches it's a little bit harder to find the matrix, though.

[Muirium]

After the recent howto matrix discovery thread on a Filco Minila, it'll be informative to find out how you do the same with a fundamentally different switch type. My guess is you build a different kind of continuity tester, one for looking for capacitance changes rather than simple conductivity. An oscillator of some sort?

The differences and similarities in approach should be interesting.

[matt3o]

the substantial difference is that the keyboard needs to be powered while testing. it seems trivial, but it's not easy to find a comfortable config where you can have the case open, the controller accessible, pins exposed for the multimeter and the keyboard powered...

[JBert]

I believe that hasu used a logic analyzer when he made his HHKB firmware - IIRC the chip on the keyboard PCB scanned the matrix and sent codes to a second controller which is responsible for the USB communication.

Does the Leopold still have all those chips or is the keyboard's main PCB now "passive"?

[matt3o]

there are a lot of circuits on the PCB but the controller is connected with 20 pins to the PCB... quite a bit just for USB coms

[hasu]

Topre matrix is a bit harder than usual mechanical switch one, logic analyzer will be useful to look into it.
I think HHKB uses 4 layer PCB for its matrix but not sure. I myself don't believe my knowledge of Electronic Engineering Anyway, it was very difficult or impossible to trace lines with my eyes and cheapo DMM.

[RC-1140]

Does anyone know a good way to buy one from Europe? I don't want to buy it from EK, why would the board need to be shipped to the US, only to send to Europe.
I might currently have the financial ability to buy one of these.

[matt3o]

not from EU but maybe this is your best bet http://deskthority.net/marketplace-f11/ ... t5805.html

[RC-1140]

I also just received an offer from tinlong117 regarding this thread: http://deskthority.net/marketplace-f11/ ... t5820.html

[Muirium]

I was just about to link that!

[Hypersphere]

Thanks for the excellent review. It was especially useful to see an image of the Leopold FC 660C positioned next to a Filco Majestouch-2 TKL Ninja. Given that the Leopold is billed as a 66-key compact, I was surprised to see that it appears to be nearly as large as the Filco. Apart from the difference in switch types between the two, and given the sacrifices one makes in having to use a Fn layer, what might the advantages be in using the Leopold versus the Filco?

[matt3o]

Apart from the difference in switch types between the two, and given the sacrifices one makes in having to use a Fn layer, what might the advantages be in using the Leopold versus the Filco?

as you said, the only advantage are topre switches (if that is an advantage for you)

[Hypersphere]

Apart from the difference in switch types between the two, and given the sacrifices one makes in having to use a Fn layer, what might the advantages be in using the Leopold versus the Filco?

as you said, the only advantage are topre switches (if that is an advantage for you)

It must be more than the switches. For example, from the posts in this thread and others, including various online reviews, there seems to be a special passion for the HHKB Pro 2 akin to what I have seen for Mac computers and IBM Model M keyboards. The following for the HHKB Pro 2 transcends the preference for Topre switches; it is something that is equal to more than the sum of its parts, including the switches, the sound, the build quality, the form factor, and the special layout.

So many people recommend the HHKB Pro 2 with such enthusiasm, I have concluded I will not be able to rest until trying it for myself. However, I still hesitate because (1) I already own more keyboards than anyone ought to have (debatable, I know!); (2) the cost is quite high; (3) the layout appears daunting; and (4) I do not know if I will be comfortable without Function and Navigation keys in the primary layer.

I've happily used a Model M for years, but recently I have wanted to place the mouse closer to the centerline. Last week I acquired a Filco MJ2 TKL Ninja with Cherry Blues and replaced the keycaps with Cherry Olivetti Beige and White with Italian Blue legends. I like the Filco and its smaller form factor, but it feels like a toy compared to the Model M. I also tried a Ducky Shine 2 Chinese Version with Cherry Browns and Red LEDs; I liked the Ducky less than the Filco, although I appreciated being able to see the keys in my dimly lit office. So, I am still on a quest for the perfect board with a form factor smaller than the Model M. This could be the HHKB Pro 2, although it might be a Space Saving IBM if I can find one for considerably less than $300.

Returning to the Leopold FC660C, it appears that this machine is already generating a passionate following reminiscent of that for the HHKB Pro 2. It has managed this by being a hybrid that combines Topre switches, a sub-TKL form factor, and a highly intuitive Fn layer. My main hesitation about the FC660C stems from aesthetic and functional considerations. I say aesthetic because I do not like the appearance of the isolated Insert and Delete keys and the keycaps. I say functional because the monotone dark keycaps and poorly contrasting legends make it difficult to read the keys. One reason I am drawn to the HHBC Pro 2 is that there is a two-tone version available that is both aesthetic and functional partly because the keycaps are highly legible (in the white/gray printed version). Even if I could find suitable replacement keycaps for the FC660C, this would add considerably to the expense. Therefore, if the appearance of the FC660C were like that of the white/gray printed version of the HHKB Pro 2, I would be much more inclined to buy it.

Further thoughts and advice most welcome!

[matt3o]

unfortunately you have to try a keyboard to know if you like it. no one can tell you if you are going to like it.

If you like Model M I doubt you'll like Topre switches, though.

Aesthetically the FC660 is not that bad when it's on your desktop, but never judge a kb from its cover. First of all you need to like for how it works.

A big problem of the leopold is the very low quality of printed legends. Personally I won't buy anything that is not ABS doubleshot or PBT dyesub.

HHKB is a great keyboard, but I cannot really use it efficiently for long coding sessions. If you like the Filco layout and want Topre, get a Realforce.

[Hypersphere]

Thanks for the advice, matt3o! Do you currently use the Leo FC660C with Topre switches? I think it comes with PBT dye-sub keycaps, so this would meet your criteria. However, I would prefer black or blue legends on an off-white background. Have you used a Realforce? If so, in your opinion, how does it compare with the Leo FC660C and the HHKB Pro2? Thanks again.

[Muirium]

RJ, I think you ought to consider what it is precisely that you want from a smaller keyboard. HHKB, Realforce TKL, Leopold FC660, IBM Model M SSK: they are all so different. If bringing your mouse closer is the main thing, a TKL is a fine way to do it. Whether that's a Realforce, an SSK or Filco is a matter of other variables in taste. You say the Filco TKL felt like a toy? Describe! Is it the switch?

The HHKB is quite like the Mac in that it's an "opinionated" design. You either suit it or you go nuts. It's either uncompromising or painfully compromised depending entirely on perspective. I'm never surprised to see people selling brand new ones after failing to click. The HHKB is no ordinary keyboard. It's either the best one you'll ever touch, or a nightmare!

I'd suggest the same as Matt: try a TKL Realforce. They are top notch, and every bit as good a build quality as HHKB, with a metal plate instead of plastic. But you need to try Topre switches to know if they are what you need. Very different to buckling springs.

[matt3o]

Thanks for the advice, matt3o! Do you currently use the Leo FC660C with Topre switches? I think it comes with PBT dye-sub keycaps, so this would meet your criteria. However, I would prefer black or blue legends on an off-white background. Have you used a Realforce? If so, in your opinion, how does it compare with the Leo FC660C and the HHKB Pro2? Thanks again.

FC660C is not dyesub, is PBT lasered. Hence it doesn't meet the criteria. Legends start to tear off in few weeks. I do not use the Leopold anymore. I had it for a couple of weeks. Great keyboard overall.

Leopold is plate mounted, HHKB is not. As a typing experience I prefer the Leopold, more robust and better keystroke sound.

[Hypersphere]

RJ, I think you ought to consider what it is precisely that you want from a smaller keyboard. HHKB, Realforce TKL, Leopold FC660, IBM Model M SSK: they are all so different. If bringing your mouse closer is the main thing, a TKL is a fine way to do it. Whether that's a Realforce, an SSK or Filco is a matter of other variables in taste. You say the Filco TKL felt like a toy? Describe! Is it the switch?

The HHKB is quite like the Mac in that it's an "opinionated" design. You either suit it or you go nuts. It's either uncompromising or painfully compromised depending entirely on perspective. I'm never surprised to see people selling brand new ones after failing to click. The HHKB is no ordinary keyboard. It's either the best one you'll ever touch, or a nightmare!

I'd suggest the same as Matt: try a TKL Realforce. They are top notch, and every bit as good a build quality as HHKB, with a metal plate instead of plastic. But you need to try Topre switches to know if they are what you need. Very different to buckling springs.

Thanks for the excellent insights and advice, Muirium! I wish there were an "Apple Store" sort of place where one could try out keyboards! It gets expensive buying them to try out and then possibly selling the unadopted ones on Ebay. Yes, I definitely get the impression that the HHKB is like the Mac -- you love it or hate it. After using DOS and then Windows for years, I recently switched to Mac as my primary OS, but I also use Linux and Windows. Like many people on this forum, I am seeking the Holy Grail of computing -- first with respect OS, and now with respect to keyboard. As an IBM Model M user, I doubt I will find any keyboard that I like as well, but one never knows. One of my students got me to switch to the Mac by taking the "fortnight challenge" -- use nothing but a Mac for two weeks and you'll embrace it or reject it.So, it is a very expensive experiment, but I feel that I need to find out what it is about the HHKB that some people love so much and take the "fortnight challenge" with this keyboard.

Again, after using an IBM Model M, which is built like a Sherman tank, anything else I have tried thus far feels like a cheap toy -- a feeling of flimsiness and imitation. Typing on a Model M has a solid comfortable feeling like riding a surefooted horse on a familiar trail. Nevertheless, I remain hopeful that somewhere out there in the wilderness there is a keyboard waiting to be discovered that will earn the respect the Model M has achieved.

I appreciate the advice about trying the Realforce. This would certainly minimize the number of variables I am changing in my experiment. However, the Realforce just doesn't have the visual appeal for me that the HHKB does. I think if they could improve the aspect ratio by cutting off the top bezel it would be more attractive. Nevertheless, trying to think objectively, I know I owe it to myself to try it.

Your point about identifying precisely what I want from a smaller keyboard is excellent, and therein lies my problem. Whereas I want some objective things, such as a smaller size to enable more favorable positioning of the mouse, I have gotten caught up in a kind of keyboard fever, whereby I am seeking more subjective qualities, such as elegance and economy of design -- creating interesting layouts just "because you can". Therefore, flying in the face of reason, I must continue this "mad pursuit" a while longer until I have found what I am seeking or convinced myself it doesn't exist.

[RC-1140]

Alright, after having received my Leopold from Tinlong, I think I can now write a small review of it.

The two things which still annoy me about this keyboard are aspects which I of course knew before buying. The keycaps are only lasered, and the layout is ANSI. While I don't really care for the design of the Enter key, I really miss having the additional key next to the left shift. Especially on such a small keyboard the additional movement keys offered by the Neo layout I'm using would have been great. Now I need to keep the right Alt pushed down, so I can't use these movement keys with a single hand. But that's a problem probably very specific to myself, so I doubt it will affect anybody else, I just wanted to get that off my mind. The keycaps on the other hand will probably affect the opinions of others. Being Topre mount caps it isn't easy to get replacements. I would really like to have a set of PBT Dye Subbed Topre keys, but without buying a Realforce that won't be easy. Also the keycaps have rather sharp edges, which becomes a bit annoying at least when I'm using the aforementioned Alt+Movement key combinations. On the other hand the lasering is done quite well, so it isn't as uncomfortable as the scratchy surface of modern lasered POM/PBT caps by Cherry.

About the switches themselves I can't really say much. They are Topre switches, and they don't feel different from the last time I felt Topres, which was in 002's Realforce Euro tour. I like the uniform weight of these switches much better than the variable weight of the Realforce though. I still prefer buckling springs, but this keyboard was bought to be my new carry around board, which is a use case where Model M's/Unicomp boards are not really suitable. Even a SSK is not really "portable" and the noise is unbearable for other people in the room. Topre's don't feel as good as buckling springs, but still are better than typical cherry switches. ErgoClears are close up, but don't really feel comparable. I don't know what makes it, but typing on Topres feels incredibly satisfying to me. The sound of the keys is really great, the bottoming out is not as solid as on Cherry switches or Buckling Springs, but feels solid enough to be enjoyable. I'm pretty sure that the bottom plate is an important factor in this, so I don't really know if a HHKB can provide the same satisfaction while typing.

And when I started talking about the bottom plate, I think I could simply move on to the general build quality. As I already said, the keycaps are a little bit scratchy at the edges, but that is getting better with use. The lasering/printing is good, and barely noticable under your fingertips. The keyboard itself is heavy, it might even be as heavy as my G80-2551. Not Model M/F/Beam Spring territory, but well, what is anyway. The board doesn't flex, and the only way the case can be flexed is by pressing the top and bottom rim together, which is totally acceptable with this form factor. The feet feel solid as well.

The cable they've thrown in isn't premium quality, but it works well. The layout is alright with me, and the customisability via DIP switches is a good thing. I need CapsLock to stay where it is for my layout, but I use the Fn key more than the Windows key.

Bottom line: I made no mistake in buying this keyboard. It's one of the most solid keyboards I have, it feels fantastic, is very portable and has a good layout.

[Hypersphere]

Although you conclude on a positive note, the tone of your review reflects a mood of grim acceptance. It seems to say, "I could live with this keyboard, but I do not love it."

[RC-1140]

Well, it's the best obtainable keyboard for my purposes. All the issues are minor. I am happy with this keyboard.

It's just that, well, I'm always critical with things like this, which don't fit my usual character. My ideal keyboard would be a IBM Model F 122-Key with NKRO over USB, which collapses to the size of a HHKB for travels, weighs only 1 kg, and is dead silent when I need it to. PBT Dye Subbed keycaps with deep dish instead of homing bars. In other words: completely impossible. Such a keyboard will never exist. What might exist one day would be the FC660C in ISO layout and with dye subs. That would be a definite improvement to me.

I love this keyboard, but it's not perfect. It is the best choice for me though.

[matt3o]

ah! there's not such a thing as a "perfect keyboard"... not even with custom made (I know something about it)

[Muirium]

Design is the art of compromise.

I just joined the IBM Model F club yesterday when I soldered up Soarer's (freaking amazing) Converter for my PC XT. Goodness me, is that a mechanical keyboard! You can hear the cogs and levers! And as smooth as, um, several kilograms of silk. I love to bits. It even has a little prop (for putting BASIC manuals and the early 1980s like, I imagine) for my iPad. (Yet to get it working with that, but I have ideas.) And even the Teensy in my converter surely has more horsepower than the original IBM PC this shipped with. What time does!

But I digress. Matt's quite right: there is no such thing as the single perfect keyboard. (That's why we collect, right?) Even if you make it yourself, you still have to make choices where there's no single right way to go, only compromise.

My ideal keyboard would be a IBM Model F 122-Key with NKRO over USB, which collapses to the size of a HHKB for travels, weighs only 1 kg, and is dead silent when I need it to.

I really like the sheer audacity of that idea! We all have our own "impossible" wish list, I know I do. In fact, I have been toying with an idea about how to do a part of it!

Key switches are passive. Their force curves are defined by their springs and physical mechanisms. But what about an active switch? Instead of 100% mechanical parts providing the feel, how about electromagnetism? It would surely take more power than other keyboards, and require a much more aggressive controller, but I think it's fundamentally plausible to design an active mechanism with software controlled force curves that could even be adjusted on the fly.

Even then, there are still compromises aplenty. Quietness requires more damping on bottoming out than the clack-happy of us prefer. But being able to dial in (or draw curves in an app on your computer, live!) would be pretty spiffy. Just don't lie on the keyboard if you have a pacemaker…

[cookie]

I don't know if someone asked this before but does the spacebar fits on a HHKB?

[Hypersphere]

Design is the art of compromise.
.....
Even if you make it yourself, you still have to make choices where there's no single right way to go, only compromise.

"Compromise" is a 4-lettered word in my book!

[Muirium]

Design is for many people, too.

[abhibeckert]

Looks like there's no way to configure that out of the box. OS X can swap the Alt and Ctrl keys but can't tell the difference between left and right pairs. (I'm not sure the keyboard will send different signals for them so it is possible to make a custom keymap.) But I hear good things about this little Leopold's hackability, so perhaps there is!

Control-Option-Command-Space-Command-Option-Function would be my preferred arrangement of keys down there. Where Command = Windows and Option = Alt in translation. Any way to achieve this is good news to me.

Install KeyRemap4MacBook. Not very user friendly, but will let you remap any key to any purpose, except sometimes the fn key which may not send any signal at all down the USB cable. Unfortunately I expect this keyboard is one where fn can't be mapped. But everything else on the board should be possible.

If you can't find what you want in the presets and are having trouble adding your own custom preset — you have to create an XML file and the syntax is poorly documented — shoot me a PM and I can probably help.

does Insert even do anything on a Mac? It used to be the Help key, if I remember, and may be the Fn key on the fullsize Apple keyboards now. I stick to compacts.

Yep, Apple has ditched the "Help" key on their full size now, replacing with an fn key.

The "insert" key on my leopold is picked up as "KeyCode::HELP" by KeyRemap4MacBook's key event viewer. Pressing help doesn't do anything on my install of OS X (Mavericks). Kind of a shame... I'm accustomed to using it to open the Help menu and apply keyboard focus to the search box (really handy if you can't remember where an obscure menu item is).

[Muirium]

Shift Command Slash (think of Command + ?) should do the menu bar search trick you're after.

KeyRemap4MacBook may well work on more than just MacBooks, but it doesn't work on my G5 or PowerBook. Sound the curmudgeon alert! I'm still attached to my old computers and like to keep consistency between old and new when I can. Besides: kernel extensions!

Function keys do indeed come in different flavours. Apple's send a signal and show up on the host. (At the cost of a whole key's worth of roll over!) Everyone else's, that I know of, are a private matter for the keyboard's internal controller logic. With a custom controller, of course, you can pick and choose them at will. Throw in some buckling springs and now you're talking!

Mavericks, eh? Can Mr. Siracusa ever get some rest?

[Travellerr]

Hey thanks for the pictures and review, and I really like the Leopold fc660c the layout is really nice, and the compact tenkeyless design is what I have been wanting, now I do have a cooler master rapid with cherry mx blues which is a tenkeyless board. This keyboard is great for 80 usd, but I have been waiting to have the money to try new switch and or switches...would you say this keyboard is a definitely recommendation from you or more of to each his own? Because next week is when I will have the money to afford this for an xmas gift to myself. So, get back to me if you don't mind I would really appreciate the feedback and advice on this board.