Deskthority future

[Ekaros]

Finland would allow forming of association to further spreading of mechanical keyboard etc... Probably ;D

The legal framework is rather light and they are separate from their persons, though the board is responsible for failures to the association... Only issue is that it would need to have homeplace in Finland as such it's not so good place for more global club...

http://www.prh.fi/en/yhdistysrekisteri.html

If you are interested in this possibility. Only real issue it seems is that chairman and vice-chairman of Executive commitee must be Finnish, though exception can be sought for fee of 70€ it seems...

[Dubsgalore]

I like the sound of option 1 a lot
looking forward to spending more time on DT in general

[7bit]

...
The most complicating factor is that we are international, and these structures are national it seems. For example, I find almost nothing about requirements for board members to live in the country of origin of the club, which would be a limitation which is not realistic for our cause. What I found at least suggests the founders must live in the specific country. I may find out it's better to start it in another country than mine. A traditional club has a board with a chairman/president, maybe a vice chairman/president, treasurer and secretary. ...

I doubt we need to be citizens of Nederland to become legal DT club members. Think of football clubs, for example.

... To show you the opposite, our current admin group is an ever growing group of idlers, because no one ever quits but some do end up inactive.

With a membership fee we could pay someone for the admin job.

[Ekaros]

...
The most complicating factor is that we are international, and these structures are national it seems. For example, I find almost nothing about requirements for board members to live in the country of origin of the club, which would be a limitation which is not realistic for our cause. What I found at least suggests the founders must live in the specific country. I may find out it's better to start it in another country than mine. A traditional club has a board with a chairman/president, maybe a vice chairman/president, treasurer and secretary. ...

I doubt we need to be citizens of Nederland to become legal DT club members. Think of football clubs, for example.

... To show you the opposite, our current admin group is an ever growing group of idlers, because no one ever quits but some do end up inactive.

With a membership fee we could pay someone for the admin job.

Finding the right place for this sort of structure is complicated matter. If there is such limitations that Finland has for example the location should be such that there is sufficient pool of individuals for this with right nationality.

I'm not sure we could really pay anyone to do large amount of work. You have to consider the amount of users and how many of them are ready to donate yearly and how much. Realistically I can see that upkeep cost and running cost of organization can be collected. But on other hand I still believe Deskthority should be open forum, maybe with some private areas if so is desired...

[7bit]

It would not be a donation, but a regular membership fee. I think the members should have some advantage out of this, like free T-shirts which are only exclusively available to the members, or special edition key caps, rebates for group buys, etc.

[Ekaros]

It would not be a donation, but a regular membership fee. I think the members should have some advantage out of this, like free T-shirts which are only exclusively available to the members, or special edition key caps, rebates for group buys, etc.

Membership fee / donation... Both are to support the organization...

Exclusive stuff is decent idea, though quantities should be limited not to allow reselling... I'm not sure about rebates though. Unless those funds come from higher non-member payments ;D Also free stuff is questionable in same way, as there really isn't free lunches.

I don't know the current costs for servers, but I would prefer some sane membership fee in range of 5-20€ a year... And that doesn't really buy much. It comes to optimization problem, what is the sweet spot to get most income...

[7bit]

Membership fee / donation... Both are to support the organization...

Exclusive stuff is decent idea, though quantities should be limited not to allow reselling... I'm not sure about rebates though. Unless those funds come from higher non-member payments ;D Also free stuff is questionable in same way, as there really isn't free lunches.

I don't know the current costs for servers, but I would prefer some sane membership fee in range of 5-20€ a year... And that doesn't really buy much. It comes to optimization problem, what is the sweet spot to get most income...

Group buy rebates are my business!


Sure, the outcome from the mebership fees for the DT club should be higher than what we give away for free stuff, to be able to pay for the server and admin etc, or to buy more keyboards, pay for traveling of funding members accross the globe ...


Questions to be answered are:
- Can the annual club meeting be held anywhere in the EU?
- How many members/funding members must be at the meeting?
- Is it possible to do only an internet meeting?
- If not, is it possible to give a power of attorney to another member?



Just found this:
http://www.vereinsrecht.de/faq-verein.p ... 9mYXE9NTY=

If this is true and if it is the same in NL, webwit can formally hold a membership meeting without rising from his Datahand chair.

[Ekaros]

Probably we should collect list of items to check and then collect info on various locations based on that.

[matt3o]

I had a quick look at Italian regulation on this topic. Everything seems pretty easy. You need:

- a physical headquarter (can be anywhere in Italy, but I believe it can be also anywhere in EU, have to check this)
- a statute
- registration to a sort of "inland revenue". registration costs approx €150 and they give you a "fiscal" identity
- register all members
- take reports of all meetings (verbal)
- take reports of internal fiscal situation (and approve the budget yearly)
- membership card and certificate of affiliation (to be given to members)

Annual meeting can be anywhere (even skype) and one member can delegate another to be represented at the meeting.

[Halvar]

I you ask me, let's not blow this up too much until we have it.

Paid admins, goodies, group buy, this is all nice and good, but the start should just be an as-simple-as-possible "vereniging" that owns the domain and has the goal to pay for hosting with a low yearly membership fee, and maybe split (voluntary) work between more people.

@matt3o: it's pretty similar in Germany.

[Ekaros]

It seems to be quite similar around europe... Probably could choose the location by most resonable costs and limitations. Though it should be able to make contracts itself...

[7bit]

...
... and one member can delegate another to be represented at the meeting.

This is the same as in DE. I guess it will be pretty much the same everywhere with only few exceptions.

The report of the meeting usually is only about who participated and what had been voted for or against. It is not a precise protocol of every word said like in a justice court, so you can leave your chorded keyboards at home!


Did not find out about things like membership cards or physical headquarters ...


edit: Seems to be possible to hold the membership meeting in other countries, at least this source says so:
http://www.justanswer.de/vereinsrecht/7 ... -sitz.html

[Halvar]

It's called "Vereinssitz", and it's a requirement in Germany, too. The Gerichtsvollzieher must know where to go ...

[matt3o]

would be really nice to have the association/club organize a "museum of keyboards (and retro computing in general)"

[7bit]

It's called "Vereinssitz", and it's a requirement in Germany, too. The Gerichtsvollzieher must know where to go ...

Then we will just take your address. We promise never to hold our meeting at your place, so you don't have to worry!

[Halvar]

No, it should definitely be in Berlin, and it should feature a blue Indy workstation that we can give to the Gerichtsvollzieher and tell him it's worth something like 20000 €...

[matt3o]

let's do it in Iceland (and host it here https://www.1984hosting.com/)

[Muirium]

That would probably work quite nicely up here in the western fringe of Europe and on the Atlantic Seaboard in America too. Iceland has more data centres than you might think.

[7bit]

There is only one problem: No Islandic members.

[Muirium]

It's only a matter of time. You can't swing a Model M around in this place without hitting a Dane!

[webwit]

I visited a notary today. It was difficult to find one, this was my fourth attempt, the first three were baffled by the international nature and couldn't advise me. This one in Amsterdam has lots of international experience.

In short:
Founders, board members and club members can be from anywhere.
It needs an address in the Netherlands, which can be a home address.
The minimum number of board members is one.
Two founders are needed. I asked Mrinterface to be the second club founder, so he can come to Amsterdam, and because he's one of the four original founders of deskthority. Although the second founder can be from anywhere, it would mean hiring a second local notary, who would dispatch signatures to the Amsterdam notary.
Founding costs are roughly 650 EUR, plus costs of extra work for any special statutes or constructions.
If we need a meeting or vote, this can be done virtually - online with IRC or whatever.

I'll post some thoughts about what structure and organisation I have in mind later. We have some budget from donations to pay for this, but I'll probably start a special donations topic for the founding of the club, so we don't drain everything we got and cannot pay for hosting.

[7bit]

Great!

What about a poll to see how many people would like to be initial members and how much they are willing to pay, so we can get the 650 EUR coverd?

BTW, I want member number 007 !!!!!!!!

[Game Theory]

I'm in for part of the 650 EUR.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Colour me completely confused — I don't even know what a "member" here, would even be. The club idea makes my mind's skin crawl. It seems awfully overblown to me — I'm all for Option 1 as anything else sounds like a hellish cross between politics and herding cats.

[7bit]

Colour me completely confused — I don't even know what a "member" here, would even be. The club idea makes my mind's skin crawl. It seems awfully overblown to me — I'm all for Option 1 as anything else sounds like a hellish cross between politics and herding cats.

Erhem:

1) turning deskthority into a club (...), where the club owns itself.

[webwit]

You're too worried. I don't want to play "club", I want an entity so we can play keyboards. This is the first club founded by someone who doesn't join clubs, because of some of the points noted by you. If 10 tennis players start a club to play their tennis more organised, it works out because it is run by themselves, if the club reaches 100 players, it still might work. If it reaches 1000 players, after some years, you find it is run by assholes who don't play tennis and faggot over club minutia, instead over tennis. And that's just tennis. Internet forums are much worse. This is what I want to avoid.

But Daniel, you spend an awful lot of time on that wiki, and it can explode tomorrow if I get under a bus or turn more evil. It is not the responsible thing for me to continue that way, I have a responsibility regarding all the content that was entered on the forum and the wiki and as a platform for all the social contacts. So I need an entity to take deskthority forwards, so it doesn't depend on one or just a few persons, so it can get a bank account and pay for hosting, etc. And some people DO like the social aspect, such as proven by the keyboards parties and collaboration. So I see both sides, and you need to trust me on this, my goal is a facilitating club where we make our own rules, and more notable no-rules, like the forum has been run. I picked the club structure and not a foundation structure for this so no one can grab power, and the members run it.

I do need to confuse you some more the next weeks with stuff not keyboard related, but once the founding settles down, I expect things to settle into the usual laid-back anarchy, although I miss fossala thread-crapping bad threads in the marketplace.

[rindorbrot]

I'd throw in some founding money. But I want fancy membership cards!

[Daniel Beardsmore]

OK, pretend I said option 2. I'm really tired.

If the wiki blew up, I would take it as a sign that I need to get a life. I wouldn't get one, though — even I can't bend the laws of physics (though others can). Sometimes, life sends you such messages, just to point you in another direction. I don't really work on the principle that anyone cares — that would be absurd. I quit writing software after I realised nobody cared — complete waste of my time.

My point still stands — if the club is "open", what is a "member"?

[webwit]

- Someone who pays a yearly contribution.
- Someone who has voting power for certain issues and events, such as electing me el presidente over and over again.
- Someone who has whatever special privileges as we define. Something you need to be careful with. The gold membership.

Can we make you board member of philosophy?

[7bit]

As a member, you will get:
- A virtual fancy gold membership card.
- Rebates in my group buys (ie: a bit less overpriced).
- Participation in official keyboard partys as a member (intead of just a guest).