60% keyboards (question and invitation)

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Just added this:

http://deskthority.net/wiki/Category:60%25_keyboards

Does the HHKB (Lite and Pro) class as 60%? Not 100% sure on these things ...

Also, as you can see, there are a LOT of keyboards—details and photos—to be added to this category! Over to you …

[Findecanor]

I'm not a fan of the "60%" name. I'd prefer "Compact keyboards".

[Daniel Beardsmore]

I can't argue with the fact that everyone calls them "60%". "Compact" could mean anything (e.g. the G84 series), while 60% is a very specific layout, without function keys ("compact" keyboard typically do have the function key row).

Granted, it's complicated, as there are some intermediate designs, but Google Images for "60%" turns up a ton of keyboards that all have the exact same idea: TKL minus function key row.

[Edit: too tired from spending so many hours working on the wiki .......... TKL minus (function key and navigation cluster)!! The diagram on the wiki is correct, at least ...]

[Muirium]

Yes, 60% is as dumb a name as it is brilliant. It'd be better if we had a clear a name like Tenkeyless, but we don't.

I'd define a 60% as TKL minus function row, arrow keys and home/end block(what is the accepted name for that island anyway?). So the Poker and HHKB are 60s, but not the Choc Mini or Leopold FC660C. They are intermediates, called 75% by some but that just makes me wince!

Close, but not a 60%:


Hmm… right shape but just too many keys! Still not a 60%:


Coincidentally, as I'm writing on an undocumented 60%, I'm guessing it's not proper to put your own custom keyboard into the wiki. Although "notability" is one of those arcane things I loathe Wikipedia for caring about, it still feels like writing your own biography entry to me.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Tricky, I know. I haven't paid these small keyboards a whole lot of attention (mostly because they're 99% ANSI) but their popularity warrants them more attention than the Poker still having no wiki entry to this day.

As for adding your own work to the wiki, I do agree with Wikipedia's principles. They're a pain, but Wikipedia cannot but uphold the standards it sets out. With the Deskthority wiki I try to find a balance. I have no idea where notability comes in, only that I try to be as fair as I can; for example, I've put in a lot of work documenting rubber dome keyboards so that people are actually able to learn how they worked (I had no idea how they worked until I started pulling them apart to find out), and so that people can compare cheap versus premium keyboards by way of genuine knowledge.

References are important — I've caught myself out on several occasions, where I've made unreferenced comments and can't work out where I got the information from, and therefore cannot verify whether it's true. Apparently there's a "square" type of Futaba clicky switch somewhere, but I removed that comment after failing to find any evidence to back up its existence — the comment was not backed up by photos or references and I have no idea what whoever wrote it, meant by it.

Adding your own personal projects? I personally wouldn't — I have my own website for that (except my personal project is the wiki, and my website is all but dead). If it warranted any attention, I'd let someone else document it objectively, except that they wouldn't …

[Muirium]

Nor should they, in this case!

We could really use some terminology for which "island" of keys is what, because then we can have a shot at describing the various layout fashions. The ones I'm talking about are most significantly the insert, delete, home, end, page up and page down area. But I've no idea what to call those three above them, to the right of F12, either. Can't even remember their order, to be honest…

[Daniel Beardsmore]

I think I call it the "navigation cluster" … at least, I am at the moment.

[Muirium]

Sounds intuitive. That is it's theme, excepting the fact the most obvious navigation keys are of course in the arrow cluster instead. Oh IBM!

Do we call the main alpha area the "60% block" or something else descriptive like for the nav cluster? Numbers are a poor substitute for nouns, yet that's what 60% keyboards have become.

[cookie]

...I'd define a 60% as TKL minus function row, arrow keys and home/end block...

I think this is the most accurate description of what a 60% Keyboard is!

[Daniel Beardsmore]

There's a diagram here:

http://deskthority.net/wiki/60%25

(Pro-tip: that diagram is my master file — if you save the SVG itself, you've got all the other options such as ANSI vs JIS in there. Unfortunately it needs a little bit of aesthetic flair adding ...)

[Muirium]

60% the width? I assumed 60% refers to the number of keys, with a standard layout ~100 keys and a 60% just as ~60. But then no one ever called a 122 key terminal keyboard a 120% I suppose!

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Not 100% sure — I'll have to do some digging. The key count comes out closer to 60% than the width, I grant you ...

Not really my area, but someone's got to do it, and nobody else is.

[mashby]

As a fan of the compact form factor, I put together a list on my blog that you might find helpful - http://cpkey.com/keyboards/ Granted, it's beyond the scope of just 60% boards, which is my favorite, but there might be some helpful links for the wiki.

As for the definition, I personally wouldn't limit it to the number of keys, but rather the space that the keyboard fits in. So the HHKB from Murium's post up above would still qualify as a 60% in my book.

[cookie]

I don't think this has to do with the actual width of the keyboard, more with the amount of keys.
An oldschool winkeyless US fullsize keyboard has 101 keys, the HHKB Pro 2 for example has 60 this is pretty much 60,6% compared to the 101 Keys of the fullsize. If we Compare this to a 104 keyboard (with windows keys), a HHKB would be a 62,4% keyboard.

The HHKB Pro 2 JP with 70 Keys would be a 70,7% keyboard compared to a 101 and a 72,8% keyboard compared to the 104 keys fullsize board.

I don't know if this is the right caclucation to determine a 60% Keyboard, the Poker has 62 Keys and it counts as 60%.
It makes sens doesn't it?

[Halvar]

Your calculations are FUBAR, but the argument is flawless nontheless.

[Muirium]

That's the trouble with using a number as a name. 60% suggests sixty percent of something, but what? And can you add a little here and take a little there to wind up at the same destination? Hmm.

Mashby's interpretation of the definition as a shape is just as sensible as my idea that a 60 is a TKL minus a certain list. I linked the HHKB JP as a particularly tricky example to put this to the test. We can all agree that the Choc Mini is too big to be 60%, but the HHKB's cousin is a tricky one for sure.

[7bit]

I suggest these names:
120% Terminal (IBM ~122 key and alike)
100% Standard (with function row, cursor and numeric block)
80% Tenkeyless (without numeric keys; Filco)
75% Funkeyless (without function and cursor keys)
60% Tenfunkeyless (without numeric, function and cursor keys; HHKB)
40% Micro (4x12 keys)

[Muirium]

And what about the Leopold FC660s?

It's weird how something so easy to look at is quite hard to describe.

[7bit]

65%?

Then, there are model F keyboards (the smaller ones) and all the other from the 70s and early 80s ....


Maybe this %-thing should only be applied to keyboards which are somehow based on the 101-105 key IBM Standard layout.

[Muirium]

Indeed. As soon as cursor keys get mushed up beside anything else, clear definitions fly out the window. Those poor, poor right shifts!

I'm thinking of making a TKL without a function row. So the nav block and cursor keys remain in place. Guess I'll count the keys to figure out what number to call it.

[JBert]

Due to my engineering background I'd propose "Alpha-Numeric and Modifiers Only", but I doubt it will ever stick, even if you shorten it to "ANMO".

Only those tacked-on cursor and delete/insert keys bother me...

[Ekaros]

No Ducky Mini? PKX-6200?

[Daniel]

I suggest these names:
120% Terminal (IBM ~122 key and alike)
100% Standard (with function row, cursor and numeric block)
80% Tenkeyless (without numeric keys; Filco)
75% Funkeyless (without function and cursor keys)
60% Tenfunkeyless (without numeric, function and cursor keys; HHKB)
40% Micro (4x12 keys)

I think funkeyless should be changed to arrowkeyless.

EDIT: If I think again, arrowkeyless should just be added, as funkeyless could be used for the HHKB and arrowkeyless for the keyboards which miss the arrowkeys, but have a numpad.

[CeeSA]

What keyboard is a "Funkeyless"? Please name a model.

75% for me is Race, Noppoo Choc Mini, Deck 82.
They all have F- and cursor keys. I would call it FuCo (Full compact)

[Daniel]

Oh I overlooked the Tenfunkeyless, category...

@CeeSa Funkeyless: http://www.cmstorm.com/en/products/keyb ... ickfiretk/

[CeeSA]

so a Funkeyless have more keys than a Tenkeyless, so I doubt it should be called 75%. It's more 85%....

[Daniel Beardsmore]

I think funkeyless should be changed to arrowkeyless.

What's a "funkey"? Is that a funkey name for the upper part of the navigation cluster? "Funkeys" makes no sense as an abbreviation for anything other than the function keys, which are indeed absent on some keyboards, but not normally as the term "funkeyless" appears to describe.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

60% the width? I assumed 60% refers to the number of keys …

For pure ANSI, it's 61 keys vs 104 keys, or 59% wrt keys.

Taking measurements from my MJ1 105 (comparatively compact with narrow margins between clusters), it's around 29.4 mm vs 43.8 mm, or 67% width.

The Minila is marketed as a 60% keyboard, and as ISO it's 68 vs 105 keys, or 65% wrt keys.

Nothing is actually 60% — it's just a convenient approximation, as the number of keys and size of keyboard frames vary. However, the key count is always closer to 60% than the width will be, so that seems to be a more likely value. A bare "ANSI" "60%" keyboard is close enough to 60%.

I'll do some digging later.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

I'm not a fan of the "60%" name. I'd prefer "Compact keyboards".

[wiki]Compact keyboard[/wiki]

Feel free to update this with whatever you see fit. I'm only guessing at a definition.

[cookie]

Your calculations are FUBAR, but the argument is flawless nontheless.

Whats wrong with the calculations? :O