Media keys

Findecanor

29 Nov 2013, 00:34

I created Media key.
Then I noticed that there was a category Multimedia keyboards with a link to a stub called Multimedia keyboard.

I thought that it would be better to merge Multimedia keyboard and Media key, so I moved the contents of "Multimedia keyboard" to "Media key", edited the category to link to "Media key" with a description and made "Multimedia keyboard" a redirect to the category.
However, I did some more editing before submitting "Media key", so it was submitted last of the three.
In the mean-time, Daniel Beardsmore saw my edit of the first two and reverted them, right before I submitted the changes to "Media key".
Undo revision 18165 by Findecanor (talk) — what the hell was the point of that?! Articles do NOT live in the Category namespace!!!!!!!)
To answer Danield Beardsmore's question: I did the redirect because we have in the past (a friggin week ago) had redirects to categories.
For instance, we used to have it for "Tenkeyless" => "Category:Tenkeyless keyboards". Now I see that it is not so.
Why that change? Who decided that?
(cur | prev) 00:09, 22 November 2013‎ Daniel beardsmore (Talk | contribs)‎ . . (+940)‎ . . (Not sure what the deal was here with putting articles into the Category namespace)

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Daniel Beardsmore

29 Nov 2013, 00:47

Articles go in the Main namespace. Stuffing them into the Category namespace is stupid — I have no idea why people were doing that in the past. I've removed a load of that already, but as I was about to post in Off Topic, I'm choking to death on an ever increasing number of browser tabs of unfinished work and research for the wiki.

Every topic should have its own page — I'm in the process of unravelling "Matias Tactile Pro", as someone saw fit to just dump everything mechanical Matias ever made into one sprawling page that's a headache to follow, yet offers very little information about anything. The end result is that nothing is actually covered adequately, with no research involved anywhere along the line. If you tried to add photos of every product, the page would be insanely long. No mention for example that the TP2 had a firmware programmer and a set of .asm files, suggesting that it might be possible to upload your own firmware! http://www.matias.ca/tactilepro2/support/mac/index.php

Multimedia keyboards need a page describing the concept. The media key assignments need their own page. Dumping the whole lot into another huge sprawling page is insane. One page per specific topic, instead of just throwing everything onto jumbled pages.

The same as how "Space bar" was just a huge heap of measurements, yet no mention of the key itself. There's now a page for the key itself — there's more to cover than I would have imagined. The measurements now have their own page specifically named as such.

I don't understand why people are so disorganised.

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webwit
Wild Duck

29 Nov 2013, 01:09

Daniel Beardsmore wrote:Articles go in the Main namespace. Stuffing them into the Category namespace is stupid — I have no idea why people were doing that in the past.
I started that by design, so you can discover by browsing categories. Lack of organization and related discoverability is imo the worst attribute of mediawiki/wikipedia. I don't want a wiki where you can only find stuff with google or internal search or clicking from another article. My philosophy is that every article should be in at least one category, with only the top categories into the main name space. Stuffing articles into the main name space is like stuffing them into the void. And I also think this categorization is one of the wiki's main assets. Most wiki are chaotic. I like naming conventions for this kind of article, such as "Guide to..." and "List of all..." and to sort this kind of article by character * instead of alphabetically in its category, so it appears on top, to distinguish it from the "items". I hope you haven't removed the "List of all..." categories from their category, because it's the same concept.

What's your motivation? Everytime someone clicks on such an article or category in my design of discoverability, it's a point for me. How many points are you scoring by moving it into the main name space and what purpose did it serve to remove such categorization except for some idea that a general article of items shouldn't be in the same category as the items itself?

Findecanor

29 Nov 2013, 01:34

Daniel Beardsmore wrote:Every topic should have its own page — I'm in the process of unravelling "Matias Tactile Pro", as someone saw fit to just dump everything mechanical Matias ever made into one sprawling page that's a headache to follow, yet offers very little information about anything.
Well, thanks. I think I wrote that. I know I have edited a lot on it, and am behind a lot of the clutter.
I considered each version to be a variation of the same keyboard. They layout, size and design has not changed that much between them and they are certainly not marketed as being different keyboards.
OK, Quiet Pro and the mini versions could each have had their separate pages.
But how do you compare the different versions of the Tactile Pro easily if they are not on the same page?

I know another editor saw it fit to put Acer 6312 and 6311 into one page named "Acer 6310 series", even though there is no keyboard named "Acer 6310".

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Daniel Beardsmore

29 Nov 2013, 09:44

I called it 6310 — 6311 and 6312 are the same keyboard, they're just localisations. I'm not happy with the name — the alternative (that I've used with the BTC boards) is X, i.e. 631X, which maybe I'll change it to one day. It's uglier, but avoids inventing anything.

With the Tactile Pro page, how was it supposed to work with categories? It would appear as one keyboard, with every other product not even being acknowledged in the categories. Isn't there a bluetooth model or two? That would mean that "Matias Tactile Pro" would appear in the Bluetooth categories page even though that's nonsense. Where it's impractical or not worthwhile to have multiple pages, e.g. Acer 6311 and 6312, the solution is to copy the categorisation to a redirect page under the name of the extra product, so that it gets listed, but doesn't have a page that just says "See other product".

I'm not removing categories — I've added a tonne more that got missed, including wireless and bluetooth keyboards (probably as no-one's ever added any of those). However, if you want a consistent system, you have to use pages and namespaces consistently. Lack of consistency is a worse problem than most others, as you can learn a pattern, but you can't learn chaos.

I would be more tempted to listen to you both if I could see the fruits of this apparent organisation, but I don't, I see a chaotic, random mess where nothing makes any sense and what good ideas there are, have been abused and ignored. I used to try to keep new work consistent with the arrangement as it was, before realising that none of that made sense, and I decided to do everything right and fix the mess.

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webwit
Wild Duck

29 Nov 2013, 16:59

I'm not impressed, what a lousy motivation and counter-argument. So I was right, you removed discoverability for abstract set theory, which has no advantages whatsoever, which discoverability has.

EDIT: I checked the history of the tenkeyless category, and I agree the content shouldn't have been inline here, so no argument there. Maybe we're talking two different things? What I'm worried about is that you'd remove the Cherry MX main article from the Cherry MX category, because it should not be on the same level as the individual MX articles.

Findecanor

29 Nov 2013, 18:51

Anyway.. Let's discuss structural changes before we make them in the future, shall we?

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7bit

29 Nov 2013, 19:59

For my better understanding, is the "Cherry MX" article in the correct namespace?

Or is "Category:Cherry terminal keyboards" in the correct name space?
:?

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Daniel Beardsmore

29 Nov 2013, 23:33

The whole notion of whether articles go in Category or Main was awfully confusing and just looked like people were randomly dumping stuff wherever they felt like it. With that sort of disorder, anyone seeking to add new pages isn't going to have any idea how anything is supposed to be organised. Who do you copy? Who do you believe? You have to pick one way, one strategy, one schema, and stick with it decisively.

Besides, the category-article approach is faked by creating Main namespace redirects (when you have to screw around working around seemingly terrible inter-page link syntax, it should become apparent that you're doing something wrong), but that doesn't for example help anyone who performs a search under the Main namespace. Try a search for "Keyboards sorted by brand/company name" — nothing. That text is under the Category namespace and therefore excluded by default, and it never even occurs to me to search the Category namespace when I'm looking to see if something is defined on a page yet, because, who'd write articles in the wrong namespace?

The disorder was quite deep rooted. We had three different switch infobox templates and two for keyboards (or the other way around) and it took me ages to realise why fields were frequently not showing up — I was copying and pasting infobox blocks without realising that I was bouncing between templates. I spent hours completely reconstructing a single template for each (keyboards and switches) and painstakingly altering every single page to use the single template. Now when I add new template fields, they're guaranteed to work.

Heading names weren't consistent. Gallery image size wasn't consistent, or presence, or lack thereof (some pages just had so many massive images you could barely see the text for them), and some pages even had sub-pages for the images, for no reason other than a complete refusal to be remotely consistent with any existing pages. The whole wiki looked like people had just thrown stuff at it and scarpered. So many pages were full of random formatting, terrible spelling mistakes and typos. It's like how Word 6 had stylesheets in the early 90s, and still nobody knows what they do and how they help with consistent formatting within a document and between documents — just random all the way.

Most images have retarded names (just heaps of random digits usually) and no descriptions, so if I'm looking for an image, I won't find it. Even when I do, it's probably stolen. There's nothing recorded under it that gives any indication what it is or where it came from.

At this stage, I have no patience for anyone screwing this up. I've spent a lot of time sorting this out, and there's so much more to go — I'm still finding keyboard pages with completely random and haphazard layouts that I didn't even know existed, and restructuring them. It's a hell of a lot cleaner and tidier and more organised than it was a year ago, with much better page-to-page consistency, but I'd have a lot more useful work done if I wasn't forever cleaning up after everyone else's mess and disordered minds.

After all, we now have Japan and Korea and other countries looking to it, as well as Geekhack (who appear to have given up on their wiki and just use ours) and it was genuinely shameful to have such an amateurish and unpresentable site. As time passes, we're getting closer to quality presentation.

Sadly, the ideals cannot be achieved with MediaWiki — it's the wrong software for what we're trying to do. I have no expectations that we'll ever break free of it, however.

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webwit
Wild Duck

29 Nov 2013, 23:44

Your touch typing skills are amazing, to type such a wall of text while having your head in your ass.

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7bit

29 Nov 2013, 23:45

Not only that, he parallel edits several wiki articles at the same time he writes these novel-book posts.
:o

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Daniel Beardsmore

29 Nov 2013, 23:56

I can't touch type. My typing really sucks, yet for English language text I do really well. I can bang out paragraphs of text at speed, but I can't type a simple password without a real struggle until I learn the letter sequence.

Nor do I multitask.

Anyway, if you want me to just leave you all to take care of the wiki yourselves, then fine, I can do that — I don't have to work on it. You can have it any way you want, and I'll leave it alone.

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webwit
Wild Duck

30 Nov 2013, 00:11

No no agree with me while I insult everybody's contributions, or else I'll run off and you can take care of dt yourselves waaaaa, etc.
Don't be a boxer who can't take a punch.

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Daniel Beardsmore

30 Nov 2013, 00:13

Take your pick.

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webwit
Wild Duck

30 Nov 2013, 00:15

I won't, I don't own the wiki.

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daedalus
Buckler Of Springs

30 Nov 2013, 00:15

Daniel Beardsmore wrote:Anyway, if you want me to just leave you all to take care of the wiki yourselves, then fine, I can do that — I don't have to work on it. You can have it any way you want, and I'll leave it alone.
I got this one before when I asked why one of the sections of my buckling spring article got moved into a separate article (along with some sort of tirade about how the article was a mess, if I recall correctly.) Quite frankly, if you are not prepared to discuss your changes to other people's work without A) going into some sort of persecution/martyr complex rant and B) insulting the quality of their work, then you're perfectly free to start your own wiki somewhere else free from the distraction of the rest of us.

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Daniel Beardsmore

30 Nov 2013, 00:20

Basically, most people at Deskthority still treat it like the leprechauns run it. You somehow expect me to feel lenient towards a community … sorry, club … that just leaves one or two people to do all the work? Most people just gave up on it a long time ago and abandoned it in heap, so if they don't like it, screw them, they're not even bothering with it any more.

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webwit
Wild Duck

30 Nov 2013, 00:31

Your approach won't help. Before your arrival, there was already much work done on the wiki. Including great work by daedalus and sixty. And I once cleaned up much the way you are doing, a thankless job indeed. Although I don't remember endlessly complaining about it. It needed cleaning not because people are stupid, insane, chaotic or all the things you named, but simply because of two reasons: natural growth where no standards are set beforehand and people are experimenting to find the right way, and the problem that new editors want to write an article, but cannot possibly be expected to know the entire wiki's organization and standards. We shouldn't be scaring them away by setting the standards and barrier of entrance too high.

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Daniel Beardsmore

30 Nov 2013, 00:39

I wish I could say that you were trolling me …

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webwit
Wild Duck

30 Nov 2013, 00:53

Why can't you just enjoy it? Do you know why daedalus got into the IBM details and researched and wrote those articles? Because he enjoyed it. He needed info or pictures from me? I gave it to him. But he didn't complain that these articles weren't pro-actively written by 5 members together in a team effort or desire such team effort, while stating he hates clubs. Most authors like it this way. I don't know what you want. Here you are in a place where you can do and get exited about any aspect of this hobby you fancy. That may mean that you're so deep into something particular, there are few others into that at the same time. So what? Did sandy55 complain? No he liked doing his thing. I don't want to be smart here Beardsmore. Without a doubt you are the greatest dt wiki editor of all time. I just really hope you can enjoy it more.

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Daniel Beardsmore

30 Nov 2013, 01:14

I am far too boring — most people just want their flashy Cherry keyboards and their bling. Anything else is like trying to slog through waist-deep mud — it's truly painful. Besides, sandy gave up years ago — though he did update his website briefly in February for the first and last time in four years. I understand his reticence to talk to me — in-depth communication in English is a strain on him, but his website wasn't in English. I wish I was able to communicate with him more, but I'd have to learn Japanese first.

It's not that I don't enjoy it, but it's just a fight against apathy — I can't rely on others to write all the pages I don't have time for, and over a year later, obvious stuff like the Poker is still missing — even the blingy, hip, cool stuff that people go gaga over is missing. I am expected to post everyone's photos for them, write all the articles, basically spoon feed the whole community with a wiki, and then somehow find time for all the forum discussions needed to actually figure stuff out. It takes up all of my spare time and the mountain of work left is just growing out of control — you saw how many tabs I have open from unfinished work. The end result is that I'm worn out and beaten down.

There's no load balancing. I would be far happier to correct consistency across pages if people were at least trying.

And the end result? I am not even sure whether there's even any point — why exactly am I doing this? None of it helps anyone get their bling, after all.

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webwit
Wild Duck

30 Nov 2013, 01:31

why exactly am I doing this
Because it is the meaning of life.

Too pessimistic about the end result. A result of the efforts of the DT's initial admin members and wiki editors, for example, is we got you. If there would have been nothing, we wouldn't have that result. Similarly, like we had IBM and Topre wingnuts come along, the body of your work may draw a Poker wingnut at some point or maybe even a Beardsmore II. Or not. Perfection is nice, but enjoying your hobby and what you do is more important. The best result so far however is that as one of the youngest keyboard communities and despite the inevitable imperfection, the wiki is already considered the standard body of work and reference not only on gh but worldwide, including kbdmania and otd. East Asia is where the roots of this keyboard hobby lies. Those guys were years ahead of us. Now they link to our wiki for switch references, keyboards, brands, etc. You should be proud of that, Beardsmore.

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Daniel Beardsmore

30 Nov 2013, 01:43

Life has no meaning for me. I don't expect to find one. However, if there were one, I don't think my own senseless self-enslavement would be a likely candidate. If anything, the solution is to quit wasting my time with this and let you do whatever it is that you want, and then I won't need to care about it any more.

I don't want some stupid blingy clack keycap — they're not even designed to be used as a real key, so what was I supposed to do with it, affix it to scroll lock as a trophy to my own lack of resourcefulness in finding a use for that key?

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webwit
Wild Duck

30 Nov 2013, 02:05

Philosophy is fun.

It is the meaning of life because life has no meaning.

EDIT: You use the wingnut as a babe magnet.

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7bit

30 Nov 2013, 10:57

View it as an item you can write a wiki article about, it is still missing!
;-)

Here you start: Wingnut
:o

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Daniel Beardsmore

30 Nov 2013, 14:57

webwit wrote:EDIT: You use the wingnut as a babe magnet.
I don't work for a large corporation — keyboard trinkets wouldn't do any good. Though our new apprentice (male, like virtually everyone in the company) seems fairly settled with his pseudo-blue-Alps Dell AT102W. Maybe one day I'll finish that off — half the keys are still black Alps.

7bit: I added [wiki]Novelty keycaps[/wiki] recently — that's as far as I intend to go for now. I don't actually have a wingnut keycap anyway.

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7bit

30 Nov 2013, 15:01

Just send
WINGNUT
your e-mail address
ADDRESS
your shippng address

to any of my bots and really soon you will get one.
:evilgeek:

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Daniel Beardsmore

30 Nov 2013, 15:21

You say that like you've just revealed that they're a cheap commodity item with the cost and scarcity being a lie to artificially inflate their value. I'm just not a trinket person. Trinkets just don't satisfy — they serve only a reminder that they're a failed substitute for something real in life.

If I did want one, I would at the very least expect it to be cast out of aluminium. I don't know about the gold ones — there's lacquered brass, but that wouldn't have a true metal surface. Pound sterling coins are reportedly 70% Cu, 24.5% Zn, and 5.5% Ni — since fake pound coins seem to fare OK, I guess that a comparable alloy can be obtained easily enough. They won't be tarnish-proof, but it will be so much better than plastic. Metal-coloured plastic is what you use for children's toys where metal is too heavy or too dangerous.

The end result is that the expense is probably not justified by their limited real-world value. Maybe for someone who works in a large corporation with a steady stream of single people passing through, or a university student who takes his or her keyboard into classes (e.g. laptop + Poker). I currently have two keyboards on my desk, and that's twice as many as there are women working here, and 1/4 of the entire employee count. There are more of my keyboards there than employees (there's eight of us, and over nine of my keyboards, of which six of us are using my keyboards (including scissor, Alps, Cherry, Matias and Topre — the one woman has my Apple Aluminium keyboard)).

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Halvar

30 Nov 2013, 15:29

Daniel Beardsmore wrote:I don't actually have a wingnut keycap anyway.
Didn't you win one last year? Did you sell it on ebay? :o

They are a symbol that is an effort to prove your leprechaun theory wrong. They can't be more than that, no matter if they're made of plastic or metal, look good or look ugly.
Last edited by Halvar on 30 Nov 2013, 15:32, edited 1 time in total.

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Daniel Beardsmore

30 Nov 2013, 15:31

Never collected it.

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