Topre switch / Cherry MX compatible

[bhtooefr]

Topres have NKRO over PS/2, and I didn't hear anything about NKRO over USB.

[Julle]

I'm mistaken then. I just had a faint memory that some of the Topre boards I've had didn't even work with a PS/2 adapter.

[slackface]

I cry a little every time I find no new information about the Novatouch.
To steady my mind, will there be a launch in Europe at Q2 as well, or is it only the US?

I do see your ISO-type Enter key there, CM Bram.

[Bramster]

At CES is indeed my USA colleague Carter (active on geekhack a lot as CM rep). And the product you see there and possibly in other videos and media is indeed the Topre Switch with Cherry MX Compatibility... And it will indeed be called: NovaTouch TKL

He said in the video that the board has N key rollover (over USB, I assume), which would make the first of its kind (Topre, I mean). Is this true or did he in reality mean 6 key rollover?

Full NKRO over USB sir !

I cry a little every time I find no new information about the Novatouch.
To steady my mind, will there be a launch in Europe at Q2 as well, or is it only the US?

I do see your ISO-type Enter key there, CM Bram.

If EU users want this it will also be available in EU! So get all your friends talking about it and the sooner we have it here for you guys, haha !

[matt3o]

I don't think NKRO over USB is necessarily a good thing. it's a pretty dirty hack to overcome the limit of the USB protocol... Just make it PS/2 compatible and leave 6KRO over USB. anyway, don't worry I'll be purchasing the keyboard anyway

[Muirium]

It's not always a hack.

I know such a thing is cleanly possible because my main Mac desktop has USB NKRO via Soarer's Converter. But you're right: not all USB NKRO implementations are equal.

Keyboards which simulate a USB hub with several virtual keyboards attached are a problem on non-Windows operating systems because they rely on Microsoft's assumption that there's only really one keyboard hooked up to the system. Press shift on any keyboard on your Windows box, and all connected keyboards will type in upper case, apparently. But this is not the case elsewhere. Use a USB NKRO keyboard relying on this technique on anything else and the mods can get choppy, depending on "which keyboard" they're being sent by, virtually. Hack exposed!

Nice rundown on rollover issues here:
http://deskthority.net/keyboards-f2/con ... t7143.html

[matt3o]

and by the way NKRO is just a buzz word for gamers.

[Muirium]

Tell that to my 2KRO 122 key Model M. Whoever designed its matrix didn't think much about mods…

[scottc]

If EU users want this it will also be available in EU! So get all your friends talking about it and the sooner we have it here for you guys, haha !

Please do! If we're loud enough, can you get it released even sooner?

[matt3o]

Tell that to my 2KRO 122 key Model M. Whoever designed its matrix didn't think much about mods…

wondering who really need more than 6KRO. I've always seen NKRO as something for kids: "my keyboard has 6KRO", "mine NKRO", "and mine infiniteKRO", "and mine infinite+1KRO" but I might be wrong.

[adhoc]

You're not wrong. NKRO is a marketing phrase to sell the keyboard more easily. They also stated the keyboard has a 1000Hz polling rate or something in those lines on the video and how that helps gamers but honestly, it doesn't. We all know that. CM is a company, however, they need to sell the keyboards. If every other company on this planet is measuring their ..... with numbers, why shouldn't they as well? The more keyboards they sell the more they make the more they can invest into future R&D and/or more "fun" projects, which benefits all of us.

This is not keyboard specific, you will find this EVERYWHERE. Personally I find 2KRO limiting, but everything above 6KRO is just not needed, simple as that.

[bhtooefr]

I can make the argument for 10KRO pretty easily, and from there, NKRO isn't a far jump - the same techniques are required.

[adhoc]

I would love to hear the reasoning why one needs 10KRO over 6KRO...and please don't call pro gamers, as most of them do not have NKRO and make lots of money with gaming.

[Soarer]

LOL, NKRO-bashing always in vogue

To get more than 2KRO, the matrix has to be NKRO... why add an arbitrary limit anywhere after that?!

1000Hz means less delay... so how can that be anything but good for gaming?!

That said, CM still makes false claims about certain boards having 1000Hz USB when they don't - it requires full-speed USB. Carter said he would correct the website, but it hasn't changed

[matt3o]

LOL, NKRO-bashing always in vogue

To get more than 2KRO, the matrix has to be NKRO... why add an arbitrary limit anywhere after that?!

1000Hz means less delay... so how can that be anything but good for gaming?!

That said, CM still makes false claims about certain boards having 1000Hz USB when they don't - it requires full-speed USB. Carter said he would correct the website, but it hasn't changed

isn't 6KRO an USB limit?

[Soarer]

isn't 6KRO an USB limit?

No.

[matt3o]

then why this arbitrary limit to 6? (not trolling, sincere question)

edit: this is where I read about this limit I think http://www.pjrc.com/teensy/td_keyboard.html

[Monkay]

At CES is indeed my USA colleague Carter (active on geekhack a lot as CM rep). And the product you see there and possibly in other videos and media is indeed the Topre Switch with Cherry MX Compatibility... And it will indeed be called: NovaTouch TKL

He said in the video that the board has N key rollover (over USB, I assume), which would make the first of its kind (Topre, I mean). Is this true or did he in reality mean 6 key rollover?

Full NKRO over USB sir !

I cry a little every time I find no new information about the Novatouch.
To steady my mind, will there be a launch in Europe at Q2 as well, or is it only the US?

I do see your ISO-type Enter key there, CM Bram.

If EU users want this it will also be available in EU! So get all your friends talking about it and the sooner we have it here for you guys, haha !

You come here in a mainly EU based forum and hype us for an awesome new keyboard. And then you cant tell us if it is released in ISO, too?!

[Soarer]

then why this arbitrary limit to 6? (not trolling, sincere question)

edit: this is where I read about this limit I think http://www.pjrc.com/teensy/td_keyboard.html

That 'limit' is mentioned all over the place, but it's a myth. USB HID is actually extremely versatile. The main reasons for 6KRO are BIOS compatibility and, more relevantly, that low-speed USB packets are limited to 8 bytes. Using more than one packet for a report (or bunch of reports) is possible, but effectively slows the polling rate and can cause incompatibility with Macs - not a good tradeoff, IMO. Full-speed packets can be up to 64 bytes, and NKRO only requires one bit per key, so there's no hacks, no downsides, just a perfectly legitimate NKRO USB keyboard that works across Windows/Linux/Mac/etc.

Still possible for manufacturers to do silly things with full-speed though
64KRO (or any particular number) means they're still using bytes instead of bits - unnecessarily complicated (e.g. CM MECH).
'Windows only' probably means they're still using low-speed USB style hacks (e.g. CM Ultimate).

[matt3o]

then why this arbitrary limit to 6? (not trolling, sincere question)

edit: this is where I read about this limit I think http://www.pjrc.com/teensy/td_keyboard.html

That 'limit' is mentioned all over the place, but it's a myth. USB HID is actually extremely versatile. The main reasons for 6KRO are BIOS compatibility and, more relevantly, that low-speed USB packets are limited to 8 bytes. Using more than one packet for a report (or bunch of reports) is possible, but effectively slows the polling rate and can cause incompatibility with Macs - not a good tradeoff, IMO. Full-speed packets can be up to 64 bytes, and NKRO only requires one bit per key, so there's no hacks, no downsides, just a perfectly legitimate NKRO USB keyboard that works across Windows/Linux/Mac/etc.

Still possible for manufacturers to do silly things with full-speed though
64KRO (or any particular number) means they're still using bytes instead of bits - unnecessarily complicated (e.g. CM MECH).
'Windows only' probably means they're still using low-speed USB style hacks (e.g. CM Ultimate).

thanks for the info and patience! really appreciated.

[Bramster]

You come here in a mainly EU based forum and hype us for an awesome new keyboard. And then you cant tell us if it is released in ISO, too?!

Me? Evil? Noooooooo !

But haha okay, on ISO: Our US layout will be in ANSI, others like UK, DE, etc will be ISO....
on EU; that's why I am here... We know DT is EU based. But I cannot confirm or deny a EU launch, however you guys are so enthusiastic it even made me enthusiastic...

And to all at the KRO discussion. Personally I only see it as a plus because CM Storm is a 'gaming' brand and who knows a project like this can bring Topre Switch keyboards under the attention of a broader audience. Not only the KB enthusiasts

[Muirium]

So long as it works flawlessly for Macs and Linux and the rest, too. No worries, right?

[matt3o]

And to all at the KRO discussion. Personally I only see it as a plus because CM Storm is a 'gaming' brand and who knows a project like this can bring Topre Switch keyboards under the attention of a broader audience. Not only the KB enthusiasts

As long as it is done right (see Soarer reply above) I'm totally fine with it.

RE layout. I don't really care about ANSI or ISO, I can work on both, the important thing is that I can find them in EU so I don't have to pay customs tax (and wait 3 weeks for delivery)

[Muirium]

Absolutely. Imports are a pain. (Where is our European HHKB distributor after all these years!) I prefer ANSI, myself, but it's not a huge deal. Besides, Holland is ANSI too, and so you'll need a few in Europe anyway…

[scottc]

the important thing is that I can find them in EU so I don't have to pay customs tax (and wait 3 weeks for delivery)

Absolutely. Imports are a pain. (Where is our European HHKB distributor after all these years!) I prefer ANSI, myself, but it's not a huge deal. Besides, Holland is ANSI too, and so you'll need a few in Europe anyway…

This! I tend to prefer ANSI myself due to my IBM boards and due to having some sets of nice ANSI MX caps on the way, but either is fine for me as long as there isn't the pain of importing them from the US.

[dorkvader]

To get more than 2KRO, the matrix has to be NKRO... why add an arbitrary limit anywhere after that?!

This is not true for all keyboards. Many hall effect keyboards have two output pins that both go high when the switch is pressed. In theory, I would expect some manufacturers use this redundancy for better reliability, but I suppose they decided the chances of half the hall IC failing are slim enough.

In practise, on most keyboards, I see the extra pin not wired up at all, or sometimes to make the PCB routing easier.

I have one keyboard that implemented a separate matrix for each pin (so both were wired). One matrix was predominantly on the back of the PCB and the other matrix was on the front.

In such a design, it should have higher than 2KRO, but lower than NKRO. For "normal" (open/closed conductivity) switches with only one output, your claim is true.
---
About this keyboard: I am very interested to see the insides, so that I may better judge the quality and reliability of the manufacturing and engineering. I have thus far been impressed with coolermaster's choices, for the price. I hope this keyboard will continue the trend, but we'll see when it's available in early Q2.

[bhtooefr]

Also, I was under the impression that Microsoft's resistive multitouch tech could only do 26KRO.

[adhoc]

LOL, NKRO-bashing always in vogue

To get more than 2KRO, the matrix has to be NKRO... why add an arbitrary limit anywhere after that?!

1000Hz means less delay... so how can that be anything but good for gaming?!

That said, CM still makes false claims about certain boards having 1000Hz USB when they don't - it requires full-speed USB. Carter said he would correct the website, but it hasn't changed

No bashing, we're just debating...

You come here in a mainly EU based forum and hype us for an awesome new keyboard. And then you cant tell us if it is released in ISO, too?!

Me? Evil? Noooooooo !

But haha okay, on ISO: Our US layout will be in ANSI, others like UK, DE, etc will be ISO....
on EU; that's why I am here... We know DT is EU based. But I cannot confirm or deny a EU launch, however you guys are so enthusiastic it even made me enthusiastic...

And to all at the KRO discussion. Personally I only see it as a plus because CM Storm is a 'gaming' brand and who knows a project like this can bring Topre Switch keyboards under the attention of a broader audience. Not only the KB enthusiasts

Well put. As you can probably see yourself the enthusiasm doesn't come so much from NKRO and 1000MHz rather switches compatibility (which is something we have not seen before) and possibly a ISO layout. But let's be honest here, I don't think DT is a representable source of info. Only the biggest and darkest of basement dwellers reside here

[Soarer]

Well OK, some switch types may complicate the KRO measure, but it holds for Cherry/Alps/Beam/M/F/etc/etc... and notably, Topre

No idea what the raw limit of the resistive tech is. The HID report was limited to 26-ish keys.

[Fred]

I would love to hear the reasoning why one needs 10KRO over 6KRO...and please don't call pro gamers, as most of them do not have NKRO and make lots of money with gaming.

Really wish I had a NKRO (or over 6KRO at least) keyboard when I was playing 4 player clonk back in the day. When everyone was frantically pressing keys it blocked actions for other players!

on EU; that's why I am here... We know DT is EU based. But I cannot confirm or deny a EU launch, however you guys are so enthusiastic it even made me enthusiastic...

I am also enthusiastic for this!