[Duel] SGI Granite vs. Bigfoot

[7bit]

Before we have an edit war:

Please google "SGI Granite" vs. "SGI Bigfoot".

Everybody knows the SGI peripherals in that grey sprinkled design as Granite. Nobody calls it Bigfoot (ecept Daniel Beardsmore).

I have nothing against an Alps Bigfoot article, but why must there be an SGI Bigfoot article and no SGI Granite article?

[Muirium]

Hmm. It's a judgement call really. Seeing as there are other Alps Bigfoots, there's a good case for calling it the Silicon Graphics Bigfoot. But then again, bigfoot is just a community name, too…

[7bit]

I'm still searching for the color name SGI gave it. However, when I typed on them the first time I thought it looks like granite and not like a big foot.


If you want to find such a keyboard, mouse, monitor etc, you better add 'granite' to the searchlist and leave 'bigfoot' away!

[wheybags]

IIRC, sgi actually called it granite...

[7bit]

From another thread:

SGI Granite on the left, Focus 2001 on the right



Tomorrow I'll set up the poll! yeeeah

Granite, not Bigfoot!!!!

[002]

I don't think Daniel is arguing the existence of the SGI Granite here, rather he's wanting the page to encompass all SGI branded keyboards with "bigfoot" Alps switches, although confusingly there is an NMB rubberdome board there.

[Findecanor]

I think I know which keyboard you are referring to.

There was more than one SGI keyboard that was granite ...
and there was more than one SGI keyboard that was bigfoot ...

So, I think that it would be more correct to call the Alps bigfoot granite keyboard "SGI Bigfoot Granite" or "SGI Granite (Alps)" or some other variation where there are two words to note this particular variation.

However... Daniel Beardsmore has started to edit the page to contain all variations of the SGI bigfoots and call it "SGI Bigfoot series", but it is not yet complete.
If it is important enough for people to have the Alps-made SGI Granite on its own page, even though only the case colouring is the immediate difference, then by all means do that, but then there should also be a "SGI Bigfoot" category.

[7bit]

Rubbish!

This is the right way to do it:
SGI Granite
SGI Beige
SGI Klingon
...

There is no such thing as an SGI Bigfoot keyboard. They are Alps based keyboards with SGI branding. Call them Alps Bigfoot switches, if you like, but there is still no reason to rename the SGI Granite article to SGI Bigfoot. The whole reason for this article is to spread information and photos about SGI Granite style keyboards and about which are worth something (Alps) and which are worth nothing (ruberdome).

Make an article about SGI Alps keyboards with a link to the special Granite keyboards and the Alps Bigfoot keyboards article etc.

[Findecanor]

Call them Alps Bigfoot switches, if you like, ...

The "Bigfoot switches" were called that because they were found in "Bigfoot keyboards"...
Really silly.

Also, I don't think that SGI themselves called only the Alps keyboards "Granite" and not the NMB keyboard.

[7bit]

Granite is not only keyboards, but there are mice, the Indycam (camera on top of the monitor), the monitors themselves and what not, in Granite design.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Keyboard enthusiasm began in Asia. The term "Bigfoot" predates Sandy — it's the community term for the standard Alps Model M-style keyboard platform and, I think, the clones too (no-one actually knows what went on with Silitek, Alps and Dell over the AT101 — licenced, or cloned). Until now, we have circularly defined Granite as "like the AT101" and the AT101 as "like the Granite", without anyone being remotely enlightened as to where these banana-shaped keyboards came from. We cannot fight enlightment: keyboard knowledge grows.

Also, "SGI Granite" is confusing. There are at least three of them. The NMB one, the newer-style Bigfoot PS/2 one, and the older-style (but virtually identical) SGI protocol version. The SGI Granite page was very vague about the rest of the series and no mention was ever made of there being a virtually identical but incompatible version.

The question is this: should we have a separate page for every single one of the 5+ SGI part numbers: 9500801 (beige, SGI), 9500820 (PS/2), 041-0136-001 (granite, SGI), 9500829 (beige, PS/2) and 9500900 (granite, PS/2)? Do the differences between these five keyboards warrant a page dedicated to each one separately? How do you describe the "granite but not Granite" one?

I spent hours last night researching and documenting all this, and I have also secured photos of a couple other variants including the other Bigfoot granite, that I hope to post later. The reasons for updating the page should be fairly apparent from anyone who actually reads it. The whole family is now detailed (unless there are more variants yet), yet the SGI Granite still gets a special mention. We now have the whole product family covered without having too few or too many pages, and we have a far clearer understanding of why these keyboards look so similar to the Dell ones.

What's next? Do Filco Majestouch black keyboards get separate pages from the whites ones?

[7bit]

The Granite design is a specialty and deserves its own article!
Bigfoot says nothing to me. Do these switches have a larger footprint? The keyboards can't be it, because they are pretty normal Model M 101-key style keyboards.

So: Just start an SGI bigfoot article which focuses on those SGI branded Alps keyboards and leave the SGI Granite article as it is (I can clean it up to make sure it is about SGI Granite design keyboards and can also add mice etc, to make it more complete).

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Oh do pay attention, 007bit. Feigning ignorance of what's been spelled out to you repeatedly isn't doing you any favours.

"Bigfoot" refers to the keyboards — it's a term that must go back ten years or more. It's also a shorthand for "the switches found in (amongst other things) Bigfoot keyboards" since nobody knew what to call Alps SKCL/SKCM series switches but this use has apparently fallen out of favour in Japan.

Since you seem to think I'm making this term up:

http://www5f.biglobe.ne.jp/~silencium/k ... ml/ax.html
http://ex4.sakura.ne.jp/kb/tech_alps_bigfoot.htm
http://www2s.biglobe.ne.jp/~qwerty/pc/kbdspc.html
http://sandy55.fc2web.com/keyboard/dell_43197.html

The Bigfoot platform was used by a lot of manufacturers, in particular those who made AX (Architecture eXtended) PCs, which were fitted with hardware support for Japanese text.

I have adopted the term as there simply is nothing else available to describe this product range. It might not have inherent meaning, but it is already widely used for the purpose of describing something for which there is no other name, and something that people are surprisingly ignorant about.

Whether the term "Bigfoot" should be replaced with something like "KFCMEA/KFCLEA" is a whole other debate. It looks like Alps added 'F' to the model numbers for Bigfoot; this older Model F AT-style keyboard from Gold Star Alps (the Korean joint venture with GoldStar, who themselves are now part of LG (Lucky GoldStar)) has model KCLEA907L:

http://kbd.rzw.jp/alps/packard_bell_kclea907l/

That's not Bigfoot though.

As I said though, there is second Bigfoot granite keyboard that is not THE Granite — I'll post the photos shortly.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Oh noes!

http://www.ebay.de/itm/141194759480?orig_cvip=true

So there are ISO versions. With new part numbers …

Ian from Ian's SGI Store in the UK also appears to have all US layout versions, so how widely available the ISO ones were, I don't know.

It also potentially makes this really awkward. Since the only way to refer to these is by part number, how do you group them by subfamily? Whether that's necessary depends on how many new part numbers exist. For example, the regular (PS/2) Granite is now two part numbers, but there's space for three more in between US (900) and German (904) Granites. 903 may exist — these ISO ones appear to be a real rarity.

[matt3o]

SGI references its own color as "gray granite" in the manuals, so maybe it should be called SGI Gray Granite?

[7bit]

The original article should be renamed to "SGI Gray Granite" with a link "SGI Granite".

[Findecanor]

The Granite design is a specialty and deserves its own article!

Only because it is more coveted by collectors. It is not a more special design.

So: Just start an SGI bigfoot article which focuses on those SGI branded Alps keyboards and leave the SGI Granite article as it is (I can clean it up to make sure it is about SGI Granite design keyboards and can also add mice etc, to make it more complete).

That sounds more like a solution. One page for the "SGI Bigfoot series" and one for "SGI Gray Granite", but where the latter tells about several keyboards, mice and other peripherals that are granite-styled. Each page would link to the other.
That would make the most sense.

Then, there would be a smaller issue about whether the "SGI Granite" page should remain inside the regular keyboard categorisation scheme. "Category:List of all keyboards", "Category:Alps keyboards" etc.

SGI references its own color as "gray granite" in the manuals, so maybe it should be called SGI Gray Granite?

I suppose that "gray" should be spelled with an 'a' as the origin in this case is US, even though the Wiki uses mostly British English.

[danielcepa]

Got something to contribute to the thread:
I have a strange SGI Granite / Dell / Bigfoot mashup. I found it at the local flea market (2$ FTW)

FCC ID corresponds to the older Dell At101 (from the wiki)
"Industrial" case.
Granite feet
Unbranded logo on the back.
Made in Ireland
Alps dampened white. Feels scratchy and bland.
Insides identical to the SGI / Dell (from the wiki), except just one extra spacebar stabilizer hole.

Crappy phone pics follow

[7bit]

This is obviously a Granite Bigfoot keyboard!


ps: Did you make the pictures with the IndyCam?

[wheybags]

gys this argument is pointless this is what a real granite looks like http://deskthority.net/photos-videos-f8 ... t6475.html

[7bit]

6 against 1 votes!


I did the split.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

I don't like either name. It doesn't really look like "granite" or a "big foot" to me.

It's been rumoured that "bigfoot" means "big footprint". I don't know. Find a better name for them then. There's a lot of things that need new names, including all the Mitsumi switches.

The irony is that it's actually forced 7bit to do some work on the wiki (spamflooding aside), even if people here wilfully resist knowledge and enlightenment.

Maybe that's what's wrong with the wiki: everyone likes to be comfortable believing their own little view. There is only one SGI keyboard that shape and it's ANSI, PS/2 and granite coloured, and a precious snowflake. Alps switches cannot be understood because they're random. Cherry never made a yellow switch. ALPS ELECTRIC DON'T KNOW WHAT LOWERCASE IS.

Few people seem to want to grow their knowledge.

[mr_a500]

Bigfoot? How about Sasquatch?

[7bit]

It is like naming an article about IBM Industrial case keyboards IBM Longleg, even though not all of them really have long legs (like the 101-105 key Model M for example).

[lowpoly]

"Banana Boards"?

That's what they have in common. First time I saw this keyboard was in an add or review in a computer magazine in the early nineties (?). When my co-worker showed it to me he called it a "banana". Easily predates all the Asian naming conventions.

Although they look almost identical, there's a huge difference in weight (SGI vs. Dell):

SGI 9500904 granite/german ........ 1802g
Dell AT101W black ....... 1526g
Dell AT102DW black/german .......1549g
Dell AT102W beige ..... 1540g
Dell AT102DW beige/german/spiral cable ... 1564g

There was also a Dell AT with an added metal weight but I don't seem to have it here right now. Was heavier than the other Dells but even with the metal not as heavy as the SGI.

Edit: I think I found the Dell withe the metal plate (didn't open):

Dell AT102DW beige/german/spiral cable ... 1773g

[Findecanor]

Yes, I think we should avoid using nicknames for this page title. SGI never used Alps switches for any other keyboard? In that case, the series should be called "SGI Alps series" or similar.
Case in point: We used to have a page called "Monterey switch", but we changed it to be included in a page of the switch series, and on that we use the manufacturer's name.

[7bit]

I aggree! Just make nicknames alink to the article, so people can find it easily.

Maybe we should even do this with Cherry switches.

Instead of MX Black it should be MX1A-11xx with a link from MX Black.

"Banana Boards"?

That's what they have in common. First time I saw this keyboard was in an add or review in a computer magazine in the early nineties (?). When my co-worker showed it to me he called it a "banana". Easily predates all the Asian naming conventions.

I knew some cases yellow quite quickly, but that they where even yellowed in the computer magazine ...

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Yes, I think we should avoid using nicknames for this page title. SGI never used Alps switches for any other keyboard?

Do you know that they didn't? Can you prove it? For example, after Silitek took over the Dell Bigfoot type, they also made another Alps variant for Dell, with a different case, sold in Japan only:

[wiki]Dell SK-D100M[/wiki]

"Dell Alps keyboards" for example wouldn't distinguish these.

Bigfoot is NOT THE SWITCH! It's a nickname for one specific Alps OEM keyboard range (the banana keyboards with Model M key layout, not the banana keyboards with Model F layout) with no other name. It may be that the two part numbers in the 1994 catalogue are what Alps used for this whole range, so if nicknames are banned, then it would be "Silicon Graphics KFCMEA series". Except you have to be careful here with this kind of naming, as if any variant had linear switches it supposedly would be KFCLEA, but this is all supposition. Alps may have used different part numbers, maybe KFCMXYZ for SGI protocol variants. Who knows?

I don't see that nicknames are wrong. "Monterey" however was a bad choice of name because Monterey didn't make the switch. The page is now named in the convention of "<manufacturer> <name>". "<name>" can be a nickname. Expecting everyone to learn part numbers is stupid. It's important to have them documented, but remembering that blue Alps is "Alps SKCLAF" (or something ... was it F, or G? even I can't remember all the part numbers) is not a good idea. Yellow Alps? It's SKCLAR if there's no LED, and different codes for each of preinstalled red and green LEDs.¹ White Alps appears to have two codes depending on whether it has slits or not (AQ and CQ I think). The Alps switch names I chose are hard enough to remember already, for goodness sake, and I rarely use them in forum topics.

At least 50% of the Alps switches have no known part numbers, so we'd have a horribly inconsistent naming scheme. Cherry MX is the same story. I picked a naming scheme for the Alps switch pages that would be self-consistent across all switches, did contain the family name, but was not horribly technical or excessively hard to memorise. I just modelled the new scheme on the Cherry MX scheme, although with Alps it's more awkward as they re-used colours so much. (Two whites, two ambers + one yellow, three creams, two browns, and two greens, not counting lock or double-action, although we don't know whether the two greens were the same colour as we have never conclusively seen the tactile one. NMB also re-used colours a lot. Cherry did re-use clear², and they )

Also, while I support using the SGI Granite page to discuss the SGI design language, I hope it's not going to be left to rot as a duplicate of the keyboard series page.

¹ The LED leg holes are missing in switches where no LED was factory fitted (my green and yellow switches), which is really odd. I've not see what the ones that do take LEDs look like inside or from below.

² I am not sure why people call the old clear switches, "white" — I understand that this is more technically consistent, but colours are colours, no?

[Findecanor]

You make a compelling argument... Yes, it is very hard to prove that something does not exist.

[7bit]

Why not "SGI Alps keyboards" or so?

Also: I demad an IBM Longleg article!!!

Also, while I support using the SGI Granite page to discuss the SGI design language, I hope it's not going to be left to rot as a duplicate of the keyboard series page.

No, I will take care of it once I've got the time ...