IC/Discussion on beige set

[squarefrog]

Mostly - Tab is missing. I do think layer ones are good. But I'll let others chirp in.

[matt3o]

Please let me know your ideal conf

[jdeblese]

Mostly - Tab is missing. I do think layer ones are good. But I'll let others chirp in.

The tab of the base set is 1.5x, so we're good there.

/? is not common, but all the other common ones are in there already. It crops up on the verticals on a few layouts, but I guess we could exchange it for a layer key of some kind. Any suggestions?

[jdeblese]

Mostly - Tab is missing. I do think layer ones are good. But I'll let others chirp in.

The tab of the base set is 1.5x, so we're good there.

/? is not common, but all the other common ones are in there already. It crops up on the verticals on a few layouts, but I guess we could exchange it for a layer key of some kind. Any suggestions?

[{ turns up on the 1.5 verticals in quite a few layouts that I've seen.

[Broadmonkey]

I really like the green "second" layer or shift characters, makes it worthwhile to have it dye sub instead of double shot.
What I don't understand however is why the sets must be so large. Do we know price tiers?

How so? You mean so many kits? Well it's dye sub so we have no restrictions on legends.

Personally I would gladly get rid of the Icon kit... but if there's really interest in it...

No, I actually think there should be more kits/sets. In order to cover a simple winkeyless you have to buy the Pro kit which is going to be expensive, and has a lot more keys than needed (this is just an example). The ultimate solution would be to just have kits with only one key in each, and then people could get exactly what they'd like, but it of course depends on the price tiers.

[squarefrog]

The tab of the base set is 1.5x, so we're good there.

I'm sorry - my mistake! So that very first layout is the "base kit"?

/? is not common, but all the other common ones are in there already. It crops up on the verticals on a few layouts, but I guess we could exchange it for a layer key of some kind. Any suggestions?

I might not be the best to answer - I'm a programmer so push/pop makes sense to me but to others maybe not. LAYER TOGGLE or LAYER SHIFT might be good.

Or even if you were happy with two 1.5x's:

Code: Select all

---------
|       |
| LAYER |
|   +   |
|       |
|_______|

---------
|       |
| LAYER |
|   -   |
|       |
|_______|

[{ turns up on the 1.5 verticals in quite a few layouts that I've seen.

[{ vertical makes a lot of sense to me, and as an Obj-C guy that's what I'd have anyway! Horizontal is less useful to me.

It might not be very useful, but this was my WIP layout https://www.massdrop.com/ext/ergodox/?r ... 2b3b9aeba7

[jdeblese]

No, I actually think there should be more kits/sets. In order to cover a simple winkeyless you have to buy the Pro kit which is going to be expensive, and has a lot more keys than needed (this is just an example). The ultimate solution would be to just have kits with only one key in each, and then people could get exactly what they'd like, but it of course depends on the price tiers.

It would be interesting to get an idea of price...
But 1/key sets, is that manageable without a big key sorting party to distribute everything afterwards? I don't see SP doing that for us.

I expect there'll be a vibrant market for key swaps from this set. I know a few I'd want to trade

[jdeblese]

I'm sorry - my mistake! So that very first layout is the "base kit"?

I've been calling it that for lack of a better name, but you're right, it's the one labeled PBT Granite. And I keep a little scrap of paper on my desk to measure with

I might not be the best to answer - I'm a programmer so push/pop makes sense to me but to others maybe not. LAYER TOGGLE or LAYER SHIFT might be good.

I'm personally a little leery of any of these, as with the ergodox you also have to know which layer it's operating on.

How about keeping it simple, and switching /? out for a LAYER key, which'll mean whatever the user wants it to mean? You could have a 1.0x LAYER key in the same vein, which I was planning on using FN for.

I'll try to find some time to go back and look at the layouts I checked before, see how frequently the various layer commands pop up.

[{ turns up on the 1.5 verticals in quite a few layouts that I've seen.

[{ vertical makes a lot of sense to me, and as an Obj-C guy that's what I'd have anyway! Horizontal is less useful to me.

I have that one there as well, but I don't think we're ever gonna get everyone to agree where which symbols go, so I figured all sideways characters on the verticals was less objectionable than some sideways characters on the horizontals.

[squarefrog]

I'm personally a little leery of any of these, as with the ergodox you also have to know which layer it's operating on.

How about keeping it simple, and switching /? out for a LAYER key, which'll mean whatever the user wants it to mean? You could have a 1.0x LAYER key in the same vein, which I was planning on using FN for.

I think thats a very sensible compromise.

I have that one there as well, but I don't think we're ever gonna get everyone to agree where which symbols go, so I figured all sideways characters on the verticals was less objectionable than some sideways characters on the horizontals.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. It's nice to hear the thinking behind the layout.

[jdeblese]

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. It's nice to hear the thinking behind the layout.

I based it on a random sampling of configurator layouts and was aiming to largely cover the common ground, with the default querty layout fully covered. That was apart from layers, however, and you're right that they do crop up as L1 toggle on the middle column in quite a few layouts, so it's definitely worth switching out at least the /? key.

We could also add two LAYER keys to the existing set, if people are up for that and Matt3o's willing. Any other ergodox users want to chime in?

[squarefrog]

I'd be happy with that. Those were really my only concerns.

I did wonder why the 4th 2x key was blank, then it turns out i'm an idiot as that's commonly space

[Nuum]

Shouldn't the RGB modifiers be all caps, too?
A 6u spacebar like the one you have on your brownfox could be useful to some people.

[matt3o]

No, I actually think there should be more kits/sets. In order to cover a simple winkeyless you have to buy the Pro kit which is going to be expensive, and has a lot more keys than needed (this is just an example). The ultimate solution would be to just have kits with only one key in each, and then people could get exactly what they'd like, but it of course depends on the price tiers.

I don't think that would be possible. Sorry.

Shouldn't the RGB modifiers be all caps, too?

Someone got the second error

A 6u spacebar like the one you have on your brownfox could be useful to some people.

They don't have 6u in PBT (actually I have to ask, but I'm pretty sure they don't have it).

[Muirium]

Just put my Round 4 SPH set on my ISO Ducky (as I'm usually ANSI) and gotten reminded of the frustration in missing a few caps. This set's single legend pack is going to be a real bonus, just as important as the lack of rows. Tilde and Backslash fix 2 of the 3 keys I'm looking for. Which leaves my last as a request: any chance of a single legend § (section-break) key? It's in a few European layouts too, I think.

[matt3o]

we have it in Italian layout too and never used it. Is it really needed?

[matt3o]

Copyright issue...

do you think we should be more... lawful... in the nerdom kit. As of now I spot at least 4 red lights: star trek, star wars, green lantern and transformers. Some of the others too might be problematic but the risk is definitely lower (JRR for example).

thoughts?

[DanielT]

Vim it's free Also Slackware

[matt3o]

slackware is possibly the worst logo ever...

[mm87]

Possible to have short right shift (1.75) in the RGB kit ?

[matt3o]

Before I start making mockups, these would be the international kits:

KIT 1: DE, IT, FR (57 keys)


KIT 2: NO, SW-FI, ES, UK (55 keys)


All keys are present, I haven't removed any of them (eg: E€ or the funny lonely ²).

I guess those kits will go at approx $50/60 each? (just a wild guess)

Now. Before you start screaming like hysteric bitches... please note that I bought a FULL ROUND 5 language pack and I use NONE of them.

Possible to have short right shift (1.75) in the RGB kit ?

depends on pricing. Long keys are expensive.

[Nuum]

German seems ok, but the 1! isn't really necessary, is it? I think, it's already in Ansi-US. Also, if we could let go of some third legends, the kits would be much smaller, e.g. 7/{ to 7/.

[matt3o]

German seems ok, but the 1! isn't really necessary, is it? I think, it's already in Ansi-US. Also, if we could let go of some third legends, the kits would be much smaller.

you are right. my bad.

[Halvar]

... and mine, I checked against a DE keyboard, but not against US ANSI.

Also, if we could let go of some third legends, the kits would be much smaller, e.g. 7/{ to 7/.

It's always hard to determine how far these compromises for a lower price should go. For me, if I spend the money for a keycap set and extra money for an international set in a group buy, I'd rather pay more and have an uncompromised set. These sets are luxury articles anyway, aren't they?

"Look, I have this exclusive 100 € PBT spherical dyesub set on my 130 € Filco (or 250 € custom designed board)! And I spent an extra 50 € to have the legends in my language! Yes, I know the € sign and {[]}²³~| are missing, but after all it was 10€ cheaper that way and I know where everything belongs anyway!"

[7bit]

okay... I must say it. it's very nice.



but still, I'm not completely sold.

Looks great!
You must make the A-Z green, too, because otherwise people think it has Caps Lock on by default.

[Broadmonkey]

Why would you think that?

[Muirium]

okay... I must say it. it's very nice.



but still, I'm not completely sold.

Looks great!
You must make the A-Z green, too, because otherwise people think it has Caps Lock on by default.

Why would you think that?

Actually, I remember learning to type on a mechanical typewriter (already 20 years older than me) and I was confused why the keys said QWERTY but typed qwerty when you pressed them, unless you used Shift. The same was specifically *not* true for the symbols above the number keys etc.

Okay, so it wasn't really confusion: more like young nerd rage! Be consistent somewhere, you anti-alphabetical madmen!

Also, I completely agree with Halvar:

... and mine, I checked against a DE keyboard, but not against US ANSI.

Also, if we could let go of some third legends, the kits would be much smaller, e.g. 7/{ to 7/.

It's always hard to determine how far these compromises for a lower price should go. For me, if I spend the money for a keycap set and extra money for an international set in a group buy, I'd rather pay more and have an uncompromised set. These sets are luxury articles anyway, aren't they?

"Look, I have this exclusive 100 € PBT spherical dyesub set on my 130 € Filco (or 250 € custom designed board)! And I spent an extra 50 € to have the legends in my language! Yes, I know the € sign and {[]}²³~| are missing, but after all it was 10€ cheaper that way and I know where everything belongs anyway!"

I don't actually need legends on my caps at all, but when paying good money for premium items like this: every absence is glaring. I'd really like my single legend § key for the top left of my ISO boards.

[matt3o]

"Look, I have this exclusive 100 € PBT spherical dyesub set on my 130 € Filco (or 250 € custom designed board)! And I spent an extra 50 € to have the legends in my language! Yes, I know the € sign and {[]}²³~| are missing, but after all it was 10€ cheaper that way and I know where everything belongs anyway!"

couldn't agree more...

[matt3o]

Mother Russia!



PS: don't count on it

[7bit]

Россия is out!

Україна is in!

[matt3o]