Group Build prototyping phase

[Muirium]

I think keyboards needs more symetry for the 2nd row :

The symmetry definitely appeals to me! Matt's correct about finding the right caps for it, though. Just like QWERTY itself, standard staggering is "standard because it is the standard".

[mr_peck]

I believe one of my first customs was like that, very hard to source the keycaps, though

I really like blank keyboards (because i use the bépo layout wich is not the offical french layout) so it's always possible to buy blank keys…

[Eszett]

Hi mr_peck, which Font did you use for this sketch, it looks pretty elegant? I can bolden it a little bit in my font application, if you like ...

[Madhias]

It's the DSA font the Keyboard Layout Editor uses.

[Req]

I am new here and made an account just for this group build. From what I gather you are prototyping three layouts based on feedback from the community. I have a board design that I am wanting built and I am wondering if in the current configurations being considered something like this will be possible?

I love what you guys are doing and keep it up!

[matt3o]

I come to the conclusion that finding an agreement on 3 layouts is impossible. I believe we will end up with one design per user like the first time

I love your design btw.

[SL89]

Req, that design is most excellent.

[Muirium]

2.75 unit space bar!? That'll be an interesting requisition, Req… I like where you're going with the extra mods either side of it. Japanese style!



The best consensus we could probably reach is maybe 3 sizes of layout, like say 16x5 units etc.

A few people want my HHKB meets Poker hybrid 60% from last year, right? (The board with blue caps in the OP.) I'm likely to make another one, maybe in Matias or M84s. Not that this exactly helps!

[Req]

I was doing some mockup and that made the most sense in my mind from a FPS perspective. While your hand is in the WASD position ones thumb generally rests in the V area of the spacebar. With this configuration one can comfortably hit Space/Jump while having a large alternate key within easy reach. Additionally both of the assignable keys on the left (ANY) are amazingly easy to reach with your pinky (next to where sprint and crouch normally are).

My plan was to use DSA caps so I don't think using those keys would be an issue.

Matt3o: How will that work with one layout per user? Would something like what I posted above be possible then? What is the price of entry if you don't mind me asking?

PS. I ordered your granite set and can't wait to get it! Any news on the shipping date?

[Muirium]

My plan was to use DSA caps so I don't think using those keys would be an issue.

Sound thinking. No need to consider rows with DSA. But you'll still need a cap of that size. As far as I know, there's nothing available in the range between 3 and 6 units. Your best bet would be 2.75u. Because that's right Shift! Ah, my bad, you had this figured out already! Must be too late in the day for me…

In any case, you'd better like blanks. What did you order in PBT Granite?

[Req]

My plan was to use DSA caps so I don't think using those keys would be an issue.

Sound thinking. No need to consider rows with DSA. But you'll still need a cap of that size. As far as I know, there's nothing available in the range between 3 and 6 units. Your best bet would be 2.75u. Because that's right Shift! Ah, my bad, you had this figured out already! Must be too late in the day for me…

In any case, you'd better like blanks. What did you order in PBT Granite?

Enough for a full size board + RGB modifiers + WASD (wanted to keep resale up). As far as I can tell the only thing that will be blank is going to need to be the spacebar region which thankfully is the only blank key on a normal keyboard.

Here are alternate designs that are more 65%ish

[Muirium]

So what are you using for the Any keys and that blank Shift / Space to go with them? Some cunning plans in Granite?

[Req]

The "any" keys will probably be re-legibles/legendables * from the Ruby super system http://www.keycapsdirect.com/ruby.php . Or I may turn some of my WASD keys upside down or sideways. The spacebar area Ill just grab some blanks from SP.

Here are more row friendly designs that I may like better than any of my others. The first one is quite symmetrical.

[bearcat]

If you guys are interested in getting these plates cut, i forked the keyboard layout editor to export layouts as SVG.

It doesn't support spacebars or stabs yet :/ but it's enough to make a quick prototype if you have access to a lasercutter/cnc.


For example, here's the SVG for a 45% board based on the GH SmallFry.

Code: Select all

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[SL89]

Req, I really like the ones that have the extra colomn on both sides. What size are the "D-Pad” green keys? Would there be any way to get the "? / UP” key the same as the ones below it.

[Req]

Req, I really like the ones that have the extra colomn on both sides. What size are the "D-Pad” green keys? Would there be any way to get the "? / UP” key the same as the ones below it.

I like the first one as well for a lot of extra keys for little cost of space. Keeping to a standard US layout (for the most part) I used 3 1.25 keys for left, right and down and a normal 1.0 key for up. The alignment is at the mercy of the standard layout to be honest.

[Findecanor]

I don't know about yours, but my space bars have a shiny spot right under N and M, where Req's designs have a split between two keys.

BTW, I think my ideal keyboard would be close to this (and I have posted similar layouts before):

layout.png (15.52 KiB) Viewed 4737 times

Because I'd like a nav cluster. Arrow keys one step up for better ergonomics and it frees up space in the lower right corner for placing a Teensy µC on top of the PCB which allows the keyboard to be flat. Not entirely sure about the DEL key though. No Ctrl keys in corners is more retro and less confusing when you have Ctrl instead of Caps Lock.
1.5u wider than 60%. 0.5u wider than matt3o's 16u, 2u narrower than TKL.
I wouldn't mind a split space bar... if only there were small keys in space bar profile widely available.

[Req]

I don't know about yours, but my space bars have a shiny spot right under N and M, where Req's designs have a split between two keys.

The design below fixes your gripe however it de-centers the middle key making it so you could not have it dual purpose (holes for stabilizers for spacebar).

65%nm_fix.JPG (150.7 KiB) Viewed 4730 times

Here is an attempt at maintaining the centered switch while fixing your gripe.

centered fix.JPG (153.52 KiB) Viewed 4730 times

About the spacebar profile: I think that DSA blanks will serve as a more than adequate split space bar and thankfully can be had in many colors.

Another idea I had was maybe it is possible to make the PCB and plate modular. Could break serrations be made in the PCB and plate so sections of the pcb and plate could be removed to accommodate whatever design the user wanted? Below is an image with the areas I was thinking about the serration (all the pulled out keys). Stripped down its a Poker2, with the top row and right section its a 660, and there is a Keycool 84 in there as well plus more.

modular pcb.JPG (148.27 KiB) Viewed 4730 times

And here is an attempt at calling out how I would see the keyboard functioning. Im calling it all thumbs as it gives you much more to do with those underused digits. I don't see a reason that DSA PBT caps could not be used for the space bar region even with other profile caps, especially considering they are first row. I believe I solved the thumb location as well as the cherry stem locations allowing for a standard 6.25 spacebar to fit on it if I were to ever change my mind.

all thumbs layout.JPG (238.06 KiB) Viewed 4714 times

[matt3o]

a few notes.

first of all regarding the spacebar. we are going to use standard teensy (not pcb mounted components), that means that we need enough spare room to actually fit the teensy somewhere and the space under a spacebar is the only available spot if we don't want to make the keyboard wider or taller.

Basically, you need at least a 6u spacebar (I have to check with 5u).

The alternative as I said is to add space to the top or to one side. Your choice there. The design needed to make SMD mounted PCBs is way over the average Joe (myself included) so I prefer to keep the bar high and let everyone in with the compromise of bigger spacebar designs (or btw, some spare room somewhere).

Regarding SVG, it's not the preferred file format, some laser cutters don't even accept it. The best is DXF or DWG. Conversion from SVG to DXF is possible but not optimal (as per any file conversion). I'm sorry but I really need CAD files.

Lastly, price. I don't know yet, I'm still making some tests (with wood for example). Price for a full case with PCB, diodes, teensy (without keycaps and switches) may go from €100 to €200 depending on materials and quantity produced.

[bearcat]

Regarding SVG, it's not the preferred file format, some laser cutters don't even accept it. The best is DXF or DWG. Conversion from SVG to DXF is possible but not optimal (as per any file conversion). I'm sorry but I really need CAD files.

Ok. The laser-cutting place i work with takes SVGs natively, so that's what i wrote for. Good luck then!

[matt3o]

where do you laser-cut your plates? I know ponoko accepts SVG but most of the services I use don't.

[Muirium]

The design needed to make SMD mounted PCBs is way over the average Joe (myself included) so I prefer to keep the bar high and let everyone in with the compromise of bigger spacebar designs

Pity. Because the Teensy's actual Atmega chip is a fantastic match for this sort of thing, and can be bought for less than the full Teensy board from PJRC; with the same super easy to use boot loader, I believe. I see Bpiphany and Xwhatsit use these chips straight on their PCBs to great effect. One day, oh one day!

(or btw, some spare room somewhere).

Somewhere under the PCB perhaps?



You know I love a stepped case!

[Broadmonkey]

Honestly, I have no idea how you can stand it with such a steep angle! but I also like having my keyboard just very, very slightly raised, like 5 degrees maybe, so I don't think a stepped case would be a universal solution. But if we are going to all make our own designs anyway, I guess that doesn't matter then.

[Muirium]

DT: where custom means custom!

I'd go for a different step this time, just enough at the back for a Teensy behind row 1. My little 60% is a mad wee beast with plenty of character with MX greens and those monstrous caps. But I'd like to go for a smaller space bar this time anyway.

Like Findecanor: my space bar shine is between N and M, incidentally. Some of us hit it with the right thumb, evidently.

[Broadmonkey]

I'd also like to try a smaller spacebar, but only in the context of spitting the keyboard in two or creating something else size, wise which demands a smaller spacebar, otherwise I don't really see the point.

[matt3o]

if you can make the case pretty high (say in the 2cm range) I believe you can fit the teensy under the matrix somehow (and have 1u spacebars if you want)

that being said, if someone shows me how to fit an atmega I may try that route

[Broadmonkey]

Or raise it with header pins at the top of the PCB (on the underside) so that the teensy hovers of the switches. just like Komar has done with the LED module on the GH60. Only problem is that the teensy is not broad enough for it to work easily.

[matt3o]

yes, that is what I mean, you need more space vertically to do that though (taller case)

[Muirium]

PJE's OneHand has a Teensy mounted right under the switches, like so:



It works very nicely. You then need to have the appropriate clearance in a case, like Mohitgarg's internally stepped and layered design which I can confirm too!

[SL89]

My little 60% is a mad wee beast with plenty of character with MX greens and those monstrous caps.

I know this is off-topic but do you have a build thread for that or something? I tried searching, but there's a whole lot of posts that show it, but i haven't found its 'home' thread.