XT/AT/PS2/Terminal to USB Converter with NKRO

Muirium · 27 May 2014, 14:27

Strange.

USB keyboards don't actually "know" what language they're in, all they do is send codes from a table. (You can find it in docs/codes.html in your download of Soarer's controller zip.) The host computer is responsible for remapping language specific characters like ¿ and Æ, which it does by simply swapping them.

So, if I'm getting this right, to send ¡ you need to press Shift + 1. But this isn't working on your XT? The strange part is that the same sequence Shift + 1 = ¡ is present on both your national language map that you show above, and the XT's legends. It should just work, for that particular legend at least. Are you sure you've set the same keyboard language for the "keyboard" Soarer's Converter? I think it may be possible to have different languages set for separate keyboards, and that could be messing this up.

jorgej · 27 May 2014, 15:06

I'll check all this this evening. Thanks a lot, Mu.

Evilcamels · 30 May 2014, 01:02

Hello Soarer, I am currently troubleshooting a problem I am having with my Model F (XT)

hid_listen is showing that the keyboard is connected, in PC/XT mode, which is all good. The problem is, after the mode is shown, a single R05 error occurs. No other output from the keyboard is detected until it is reset, which repeats the issue. If you have any insight into the issue, or if I am just missing a basic piece of the puzzle, information would be greatly appreciated.

JBert · 31 May 2014, 02:11

Have you double checked your wiring and made sure that you didn't mirror anything?

Soarer had this to say:

The most common error is getting the connector pins mirrored, and it can output misleading eror codes in that case.

jorgej · 02 Jun 2014, 10:45

Muirium wrote:So, if I'm getting this right, to send ¡ you need to press Shift + 1. But this isn't working on your XT? The strange part is that the same sequence Shift + 1 = ¡ is present on both your national language map that you show above, and the XT's legends. It should just work, for that particular legend at least. Are you sure you've set the same keyboard language for the "keyboard" Soarer's Converter? I think it may be possible to have different languages set for separate keyboards, and that could be messing this up.

Ok, MU, after your hint, I've checked my windows XP language and keyboard configuration. I was working with

- language: SPANISH-TRADITIONAL ORDERING
- keyboard: SPANISH
-.sc (the very complicated one I mention before, with all the macro changes, etc.).

But after some trying this weekend, I've arrived to a simpler situation:

1) Language: Using now SPANISH-INTERNATIONAL ORDERING
2) Keyboard: I had to set up a new CUSTOM keyboard for my very strange XT-Spanish layout (done with Microsoft Keyboard Layout Creator.1.4).
3) Now my .sc config file for the Soarer Convereter needs only the solution for changing the key left to ENTER (now is Ç, yes, it's a French character, but it's there anyway, useful to email my friends in Bordeaux) with the key right of LEFT SHIFT (now it is < >), and also to change the key just below ENTER (now it is * and PrintScreen), just as follows:

Code: Select all

remapblock
layer 0
BACK_QUOTE BACKSLASH
BACKSLASH EUROPE_2
F10 FN1 # need to map the FN key into the base layer (0)
endblock

macroblock
# PrtSc macro 
macro PAD_ASTERIX shift
press PRINTSCREEN
endmacro
endblock

Now I have the 1986 XT tank working fine in my office (windows environment), filling the air with its wonderful capacitive buckling spring noise. Next challenge is to make the thing working with my linux box at home (I promise to exchange my experiencies). Thanks again for the input, MU.

Last news: King Juan Carlos is resigning after 40 years. Wondering if the XT Model F will last till 2026...

Evilcamels · 10 Jun 2014, 03:51

I have double checked the wiring and pinouts and they are correct. That was my first thought when the error occurred. If you have any other troubleshooting ideas, I am all ears.

Muirium · 10 Jun 2014, 14:43

I've never seen these errors, myself. Are you using a Teensy or one of its clones? I'd try reuploading the .hex file at least to see if that's maybe corrupted somewhere. Definitely strange behaviour.

@jorgej

Good to see it working! Even kings can't match these IBMs…

Evilcamels · 10 Jun 2014, 21:58

I reuploaded the blinking LED .hex and then put Soarer back on it and that worked. Thanks!

Muirium · 10 Jun 2014, 22:15

It worked, just like that!?!

Well, stroke my beard and polish my crystal ball!

Hypersphere · 11 Jun 2014, 02:21

Evilcamels wrote:I reuploaded the blinking LED .hex and then put Soarer back on it and that worked. Thanks!

Another satisfied XT customer!

I am thoroughly enjoying my XT. Not to take anything away from the magnificent Soarer Converter (which I plan to install in several of my keyboard during the days ahead), but I would also highly recommend the Hagstrom converter. It is an external converter box, and it is plug and play. In addition, I use a Mac as my primary computer, and the free remapping software, KeyReMap4MacBook is simple and effective; I used it to remap my XT in a hybrid HHKB/Mac layout, and it works beautifully.

ZSYStriker · 22 Jun 2014, 19:59

Newbie here... I've been reading this thread quite a while and recently I was successful in converting a 122-key terminal M. I just acquired another terminal M real cheap. This one is a 101-key. But it must be a franken-board. P/N is 1395162, but it's printed on a mailing label that's been pasted over an IBM-Lexmark label for 1391401 dated November 4, 1993. There are no LED's and the logo is oval grey at upper-left and the connector is RJ45 - non-removable. By the way, the key caps are almost identical to the standard PS/2 model M, locations and labels -- except for the pad_minus that has "Setup" printed on the front and the pad_plus with "\ z" printed on the front -- actually the top line of the "z" intersects the "\" -- never seen a symbol like that before. So I'm thinking that the previous owner did some mix and matching... I'm pretty sure it's not 1391401 given the non-removable RJ45 connector and the lack of LED's.

When I connected it and ran hid_listen, ESC showed up as F13, Print Screen as F23, Scroll lock as F24, Pause as LANG_4, Num_lock as ESC, pad_slash as Num_lock, pad_asterix as scroll lock, pad_plus as pad_asterix, pad_minus as extra_sysrq, and finally pad_plus as pad_enter. Of course, I was able to fix all these using remap block thanks to Soarer. But here's the kicker. Neither CTRL key registers with hid_listen!! Nothing shows up! On a text editor, hitting CTRL-c registers as "c" -- it's as though CTRL doesn't exist.

I can believe that one CTRL key might be damaged, but both? Otherwise the board is pretty solid -- all rivets are intact and the all other keys register and all keys buckle nicely -- tight, nothing loose. typing feel is wonderful, almost as crisp as a new Model M, but without the CTRL key, well you know...

Any ideas?? I'm stumped.

Hypersphere · 23 Jun 2014, 02:36

ZSYStriker wrote: ↑Newbie here... I've been reading this thread quite a while and recently I was successful in converting a 122-key terminal M. I just acquired another terminal M real cheap. This one is a 101-key. But it must be a franken-board. P/N is 1395162, but it's printed on a mailing label that's been pasted over an IBM-Lexmark label for 1391401 dated November 4, 1993. There are no LED's and the logo is oval grey at upper-left and the connector is RJ45 - non-removable. By the way, the key caps are almost identical to the standard PS/2 model M, locations and labels -- except for the pad_minus that has "Setup" printed on the front and the pad_plus with "\ z" printed on the front -- actually the top line of the "z" intersects the "\" -- never seen a symbol like that before. So I'm thinking that the previous owner did some mix and matching... I'm pretty sure it's not 1391401 given the non-removable RJ45 connector and the lack of LED's.

When I connected it and ran hid_listen, ESC showed up as F13, Print Screen as F23, Scroll lock as F24, Pause as LANG_4, Num_lock as ESC, pad_slash as Num_lock, pad_asterix as scroll lock, pad_plus as pad_asterix, pad_minus as extra_sysrq, and finally pad_plus as pad_enter. Of course, I was able to fix all these using remap block thanks to Soarer. But here's the kicker. Neither CTRL key registers with hid_listen!! Nothing shows up! On a text editor, hitting CTRL-c registers as "c" -- it's as though CTRL doesn't exist.
I can believe that one CTRL key might be damaged, but both? Otherwise the board is pretty solid -- all rivets are intact and the all other keys register and all keys buckle nicely -- tight, nothing loose. typing feel is wonderful, almost as crisp as a new Model M, but without the CTRL key, well you know...

Any ideas?? I'm stumped.

Ja, das ist eine Frankentastatur! Looks like a job for the Soarer!

ZSYStriker · 23 Jun 2014, 04:35

OK, so I thought about this problem a little more and then decided to open up the board to see if perhaps the controller has been replaced. It's definitely not the one for 1391401. But looking at it, I can't tell whether it's a transplant. Anyway, I just decided to map my LALT to LCTRL. So now I have one ALT and one CTRL with two dead keys -- a workable solution again thanks to Soarer -- if not an ideal one. If anyone has some insight to this problem, let me know. Just to satisfy my curiosity... Thanks.

scottc · 23 Jun 2014, 09:39

The Z key you mention, does it look like the similar Z at the bottom of this picture?

If so, it might just be a Polish language Ź key, which is pretty cool.

Halvar · 23 Jun 2014, 13:42

@ZSYStriker: I don't know if you want to go so deep, but you could find out if the hardware of the control keys work by measuring directly at the connectors between the membrane and the controller:

http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/mode ... t8149.html

If they do, I guess the simplest solution would be to try to find a standard Model M controller. Some guy on ebay.de sells them way too expensive (20€), but maybe you can find one through the marketplace here or on GH.

ZSYStriker · 23 Jun 2014, 16:56

@Halvar: Thanks, I'll try your suggestion. I have an extra M controller.

@scottc: No, it's not a Polish letter. There are a few 1395162's on ebay and they all seem to have this weird /Z symbol on the front of the keypad_plus. I don't really know what it means...

Muirium · 23 Jun 2014, 18:47

Pictures? I have a fixed RJ45 cabled Model M with some pretty strange legends too:

Your remaps sound familiar! But mine has no problems with the mods.

Hypersphere · 23 Jun 2014, 21:32

Interested in the possibility of converting terminal keyboard such as DEC, KayPro or TeleVideo to USB.

ZSYStriker · 24 Jun 2014, 04:23

@Muirium

$Notice the "Setup" and "\z" on the front of pad_minus and pad_plus. These are the only two keys that are different from the standard M PS/2 keyboard.$: Notice the "Setup" and "\z" on the front of pad_minus and pad_plus. These are the only two keys that are different from the standard M PS/2 keyboard.; WeirdKeys.jpg (540.05 KiB) Viewed 6472 times

: Notice I've swapped the LCTRL with LALT to get a CTRL key working...; keyboard.jpg (374.87 KiB) Viewed 6472 times

Sorry the first picture is a little blurry -- unsteady hands...

So I've got a working keyboard with one LCTRL and one RALT key working. The LALT and RCTRL in the picture above do not work...

ZSYStriker · 24 Jun 2014, 04:42

@Muirium

: Here's a better picture...; WeirdKeys2.jpg (326.68 KiB) Viewed 6470 times

Halvar · 24 Jun 2014, 08:56

I have never seen that either, and even detexify ( http://detexify.kirelabs.org/classify.html ) can't find it. And it's not an APL symbol.

Maybe the keyboard was made for some special hardware/machinery, which would also explain the "Setup", and this symbol means some very special procedure of that machine, like cutting something... Nice riddle anyway...

ZSYStriker · 24 Jun 2014, 16:29

Ah, well. I guess I can live with one ALT and one CTRL key each. This is the best feeling Model M I have, have used so far, bar none -- very crisp. A lot of of M's got that dull click that comes with age and loose rivets. And bolt-modding is such a hassle... I've got one 122-key open waiting for bolt-mod, but I just can't seem to get started...

Hypersphere · 24 Jun 2014, 16:50

Soarer wrote: ↑This is my Teensy-based project which adapts XT, AT and some 122 key terminal keyboards to USB, also known simply as "Soarer's Converter".

<snip>
Soarer, What would be needed to convert terminal keyboards from the 1970s to early 1980s (e.g., DEC VT100, KayPro II, Televideo 950) to USB? Could this be done with a Teensy and some modification of your converter, or would additional circuitry be involved, as, for example shown in this post on Hackaday?
http://hackaday.com/2013/08/13/usb-adap ... -keyboard/

Muirium · 24 Jun 2014, 17:26

Weird symbol, all right. Looks more at home on a Phonecian keyboard than English! Hard to tell what it is, perhaps a stylisted katakana or hiragana Japanese symbol? But the wouldn't mean anything in the context. Far as I know, Japanese use + for addition, just like us.

@Hyper: hooking things together is one thing. Getting them talking the same language is the hard part. You've heard of protocols, right? Soarer's converter speaks XT, AT and IBM's terminal protocol. Going beyond those is a ton of work. He already took on Wyse and won. But Do not underestimate the effort of adopting a new tongue, or ten…

Hypersphere · 24 Jun 2014, 21:10

Muirium wrote: ↑ <snip>
@Hyper: hooking things together is one thing. Getting them talking the same language is the hard part. You've heard of protocols, right? Soarer's converter speaks XT, AT and IBM's terminal protocol. Going beyond those is a ton of work. He already took on Wyse and won. But Do not underestimate the effort of adopting a new tongue, or ten…

@Muirium: Thanks for the cautionary advice. Oh, yes, I am aware of protocols and the difficulties that can be encountered in converting from one to another. Some of the terminals from the 70s and early 80s are VT100 or similar. There is an interesting post on Hackaday illustrating the hardware and software used to convert a DEC terminal keyboard to USB; it is quite a project. I have such things potentially reserved for the longer term. In the short-term, I have much work to do restoring and converting an XT, AT, F-122, and Displaywriter!

ZSYStriker · 24 Jun 2014, 21:45

@Hypersphere: Converting Display Writer keyboards? Is this possible with Soarer? I think someone is working on a controller swap that will make these monsters work, but I don't know where that stands right now. Anyway, I'd LOVE to get my hands on one of these, but so far no luck...

Muirium · 24 Jun 2014, 21:51

You're thinking of Xwhatsit. I have him to thank for saving my Kishsaver too!

http://deskthority.net/for-sale-f55/xwh ... t7993.html

Sometimes a replacement controller is the right solution. Not all old protocols are as full featured. Many beam springs, and the Kishsaver, didn't send full make and break codes for modifiers. Fortunately, the protocols Soarer supports were more forward thinking.

ZSYStriker · 24 Jun 2014, 22:08

Wow! I had NO idea this has advanced so far by Xwhatsit... So if I somehow get my hands on a working Display Writer keyboard, I can order one of these controllers from Xwhatsit and get it to work? Please answer "yes" and I'll redouble my effort looking for one of these monsters!! I remember typing on a Display Writer terminal (early 80's maybe) and the typing feel of these beam springs were the best -- even better than the F's. Anyone, anywhere you know selling these?

Muirium · 24 Jun 2014, 22:16

You bet the answer is yes.

But now to the task of finding one… oh, wait, you're in the US? Okay, that should be an order of magnitude easier. So get cracking!

Hypersphere · 24 Jun 2014, 22:39

ZSYStriker wrote: ↑Wow! I had NO idea this has advanced so far by Xwhatsit... So if I somehow get my hands on a working Display Writer keyboard, I can order one of these controllers from Xwhatsit and get it to work? Please answer "yes" and I'll redouble my effort looking for one of these monsters!! I remember typing on a Display Writer terminal (early 80's maybe) and the typing feel of these beam springs were the best -- even better than the F's. Anyone, anywhere you know selling these?

I found an IBM Displaywriter keyboard recently on US eBay; it has a missing key, but it turns out that many keys from IBM Selectric typewriters fit the Displaywriter, so I also picked up a Selectric II on eBay for about $15. Unfortunately, Selectrics are much more plentiful than beam springs!