Sadness, infinite

[matt3o]

Some of you may know that I've got a CNC and that is not the source of sadness at all (au contraire).

The problem is that 99% of the software needed to design the parts and actually activate the CNC machine is Windows based. To work with CNC you need to master three kind of software: CAD, CAM, control software.

2D CAD is not a problem on any platform. Draftsight is good enough for me and goes on every platform.

3D CAD is more complicated. Blender is a good 3D software but it's not good for prototyping. Rhino3D is probably the best humanly-priced software in the category. It's a good 3D software that can be used almost as a CAD. Problem is that it only runs on Windows, there's a Mac version but still in development and the plugins (that I need) don't work on it. There's Autocad of course that works on Win and Mac (being the Mac version a bit limited), but it's way too much for what I need.

The real problem comes with CAM software. I believe Mac has only 2 CAM softwares, one is from Siemens (and it is used by Apple for prototyping) and it probably costs more than my house, the other is a hobbyist software called MeshCAM.

Then the control software. Mac has none basically, Linux has LinuxCNC (EMC2) but it doesn't work on USB.

So, long story short. I have to install a Windows machine. I don't know how I will survive without the command line and bash. It's since 2004 that I do not use windows as my primary machine and this makes me incredibly sad... I wish I could use Mac, at least I'd have the command line, but that doesn't seem possible.

Sorry for the rant. Wish me luck.

[CeeSA]

You will make! Good luck.

[Madhias]

You could use Windows PowerShell
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_PowerShell

Oh, good luck!

[matt3o]

You could use Windows PowerShell
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_PowerShell

I tried that. It's rather laughable.

[benichka]

Ah ah good luck with that!

Most of the time it's the exact opposite: people whining about the fact that they will have to open that strange thing that is the console when they go from Windows to *Nix

You'll see, since 2004 Windows greatly improved! Don't be afraid

(oh btw, I don't want to be a grammar nazi, but it's "au contraire" )

[matt3o]

You'll see, since 2004 Windows greatly improved! Don't be afraid

well, I will be installing Win7, so I don't think much changed.

(oh btw, I don't want to be a grammar nazi, but it's "au contraire" )

thanks!

[andrewjoy]

WIn7 is ok, if it was an offline box and was not connected to the net i would use win 2000, if your cnc supported it.

And yes power shell is a joke to do the simplest things you need long convoluted commands that Microsoft have not even bothered to document properly

[benichka]

If your console is really missing you, you can also install cygwin

But that'll be just for fun, I highly doubt that your CNC will be compatible with it

And I "+1" andrewjoy, win 7 is OK

[matt3o]

WIn7 is ok, if it was an offline box and was not connected to the net i would use win 2000, if your cnc supported it.

And yes power shell is a joke to do the simplest things you need long convoluted commands that Microsoft have not even bothered to document properly

actually the CNC will be driven by separate PC, a mini-box probably, I would put XP in it if I could I don't need internet, but I will be needing wireless and sharing... so I guess I'll go win7 on that as well. I also have to buy 2 win7 licenses. What a terrible day this is for me...

[andrewjoy]

if its not connected to the net then stick with XP or 2k in fact POS Ready 2009 is still supported ( basically XP SP3 )

http://www.microsoft.com/en-gb/download ... x?id=11196

supported untill April 9, 2019.

If you can find a licence go for it.

[DanielT]

Why don't you use a virtual machine, Virtual Box is great and free and works on Linux.
I have one VM for the company VPN and stuff that can only run on Win. And Virtual Box is that good that I run the Win VM on an Intel Atom HP thin client with 4gb RAM

[andrewjoy]

You run a virtualised VPN on a Atom, impressive.

Shame you cannot just switch to pFsence

i run that on a sandy bridge low power celeron works fine for my home network admitedly its doing DHCP firewall and proxy as well, i went a bit crazy tho and got 8 gig of ram for a massive web cache and another 16 gig of cache on Msata SSD

[Muirium]

I suspect he's already thought of it. The trouble with virtual machines is trying to talk directly to hardware with them, and also this kind of Windows-only software is just the kind of thing that's full of anti-piracy measures that will sniff out virtualisation and yell. Might even have the joy of an authentic dongle!

@Matteo: you've shown a few things that you've done with your CNC already. What's the big new thing you need, which requires this whole (awful) software stack?

Btw: don't listen to these Windows guys. It's still just as bad as always. A new skin here, a new skin there, and a whole lot of intrusive, system modal authentication dialogs by default so they can cover their ass for security. They can only achieve so much, given all that code base and backwards compatibility.

[andrewjoy]

"It's still just as bad as always" ehhh possibly but at least 7 and 2k are stable .... ish

if i did not play games on PC however i would not come within 10 miles of another Microsoft OS, i spend more time turning off the hand holding crap on 7 and installing some decent alternatives for the in built uitils than i do building a whole arch install from the ground up

[DanielT]

You run a virtualised VPN on a Atom, impressive.

Shame you cannot just switch to pFsence

i run that on a sandy bridge low power celeron works fine for my home network admitedly its doing DHCP firewall and proxy as well, i went a bit crazy tho and got 8 gig of ram for a massive web cache and another 16 gig of cache on Msata SSD

That is for the client only, I have some crappy VPN that requires a dongle and works only on Win
But I also have my home VPN that runs on Raspberry PI, and is the old model B with 256MB RAM, never failed me
I have quite a datacenter at home

Virtualization is no longer a big issue in regard of licensing and hardware control, a lot of legacy stuff is migrated to VM's with success.

[Muirium]

I honestly don't know what the big deal was meant to be about Windows 7 compared to Vista. They look almost identical to me — right down to the smeared grease look of window titles — and handle pretty much the same <TO AUTHENTICATE ENTER PASSWORD> way as each other.

So I'm expecting a great sigh of relief from the PC industry and media when Windows 9 comes out, no matter what it looks like. The pattern seems to be: Tick. Microsoft changes the look. Everyone jumps out of windows in panic. Tock. Microsoft changes nothing. Everyone relaxes.

[scottc]

So, long story short. I have to install a Windows machine. I don't know how I will survive without the command line and bash. It's since 2004 that I do not use windows as my primary machine and this makes me incredibly sad... I wish I could use Mac, at least I'd have the command line, but that doesn't seem possible.

When I have to use Windows, I often use command-line tools to get stuff done. I can recommend these:

- Git Bash - it's a bash shell for Windows with some of the basic UNIX utilities. It's just a bundle of some Cygwin stuff, but is much less hassle to set up.
- Chocolatey - a UNIX package manager for Windows. It's pretty good. You can install a load of packages using it.
- ConEmu2 - a "better" terminal emulator for Windows (for some definition of "better", but anything is better than cmd.exe). Just start git bash in it.

[webwit]

Apple fanboys should be happy there's still Windows. Otherwise Apple has no source of ideas for their revolutionary user interfaces.

[matt3o]

unfortunately I can't run 3D software on VM. Well... I can and I am right now, but it's a pain in the arse, really. When I make the simulation I get a 1fps framerate (and I have a darn i7) which is really killing me.

Also, the CNC controlling software is a very delicate thing. It's all about precision and the VM is a bottleneck.

@Muirium, I'm working on keycaps and kb cases. I'll post a status update in the next few days.

- Git Bash - it's a bash shell for Windows with some of the basic UNIX utilities. It's just a bundle of some Cygwin stuff, but is much less hassle to set up.
- Chocolatey - a UNIX package manager for Windows. It's pretty good. You can install a load of packages using it.
- ConEmu2 - a "better" terminal emulator for Windows (for some definition of "better", but anything is better than cmd.exe). Just start git bash in it.

thanks, yes I'm looking for alternatives and those are what I've found (also: console2, git bash, cywig, ...) but they all look like hackish solutions.

[Muirium]

That reminds me: I must nag Peter again for a PCB update.

Apple fanboys should be happy there's still Windows. Otherwise Apple has no source of ideas for their revolutionary user interfaces.

Amusing to think that the flat Metro UI you're referring to debuted on the Zune. What a winner! And so beloved by Microsoft users ever since…

Besides, isn't that what <insert name of your distro> is for? Joking aside, everything Apple does is inspired by that thing 7bit uses. OpenStep Undead Edition.

[woody]

@matt3o:

I was using Cygwin more than a decade ago, probably on XP. Was mostly fine, except for being very slow.

Have you tried contacting old-school CNC users about some old but useful software (even DOS)? About twenty years ago I was developing CNCs, and while never bothered with CAD software, the end users were happy enough and did their job. I'd suggest you find some small CNC shop in your area and just talk with the experienced guys there.

[matt3o]

I have an USB control board that is basically compatible with Mach3 only... so my options are pretty limited on that side.

[andrewjoy]

+1 for ConEmu2, with that nano and far manager the windows command line is at least 1/2 usable

anyone know of a replacement for cron for windows ?

[7bit]

Ideally you find out the communication protocol and generate commands to the machine according to what it should do.


Or just take it apart, remove all those evil controllers with their embedded systems and bulid your own controller to drive the analog hardware.


Seriously, it is only moving the drill-head into 3 directions, maybe turn it by an angle and set the drill speed.


Can't be too difficult.

[matt3o]

Ideally you find out the communication protocol and generate commands to the machine according to what it should do.


Or just take it apart, remove all those evil controllers with their embedded systems and bulid your own controller to drive the analog hardware.


Seriously, it is only moving the drill-head into 3 directions, maybe turn it by an angle and set the drill speed.


Can't be too difficult.

technically I could connect the motors directly to a parallel port. 2 pins per motor + 2 pins for spindle. In reality I need much more than that (say I want to add a 4th axis, or homing switches, buffers, etc...). Technically feasible but still a lot of work and testing. I could simply buy an ethernet controller, but if I want to invest more on this machine I need to get some income from it. I don't want to make money, just enough to sustain the expenses, because it's an expensive hobby.

And BTW, there are always the CAD and CAM issues that run on windows only anyway.

[Muirium]

Ideally, we would have an open standard for CAD (that actually works, one with open source code rather than a spec written to match its one and only proprietary implementation… Microsoft Office!) and open source tools that can work with that all the way to the CNC hardware.

We do not live in an ideal world. It's still under construction!

[woody]

technically I could connect the motors directly to a parallel port. 2 pins per motor + 2 pins for spindle.

No, you don't want that.

That mill is driven by stepper motors, right?

[7bit]

And BTW, there are always the CAD and CAM issues that run on windows only anyway.

CAD is overrated.


Why not make it yourself? It is just simple R^3 vector graphics. No need to visualise. Visualisation is for people without an abstract mind.

[matt3o]

I tell ya, I could even overcome the CAD issue somehow (VM or something), but I would still have the CAM problem.

[7bit]

- buy regular tools.
- program the robot in your avatar to use them they way you want it.
=> problem solved.

Seriously, I think there are only 2 solutions:
Write the free software toolkit to do the job all yourself, or pay for proprietary shit.