c-64 keyboard reboot

[matt3o]

Wondering if there would be interest in reviving the old c64 keyboard in a more modern and sane layout/case.

The idea would be use the same colors and look and feel but the case slimmer and fancier.

From this:



To something like this (sorry for the lame mockup):



The layout of course would be different, closer to an HHKB maybe, or this. The side function row would be 2x5 1u, instead of 1x5 1.75u.

The cost of such a thing all included (case/switches/keycaps/controller/etc...) would be realistically in the €250 range.

[Muirium]

What about all those glorious front legends? They're the main thing I remember from my VIC-20 keyboard, as I didn't have a C-64. The thing had a nerdy presence all because of those:

[matt3o]

you mean the side-printed legends? those would be totally feasible

[DanielT]

The project is really interesting I don't know if I can afford it at that price range, even if it's worth every penny

[mr_a500]

What about all those glorious front legends? They're the main thing I remember from my VIC-20 keyboard, as I didn't have a C-64. The thing had a nerdy presence all because of those:

I didn't have a C64 or a VIC-20, (I do now) but I always loved the symbols on the PET, the first computer keyboard I ever typed on:

[matt3o]

I made some more research, if you can hand-wire and we 3d print the case the cost would be something like:

- case €70
- teensy €15
- switches ~€45
- keycaps €70

it's still €200, but you have a full SA keycap set anyway.

[vvp]

€70 for a 3dPrinted keyboard case? That would be a great price.
If it is a better process than FDM/FFFI then I would probably use it myself instead of 3dPrinting on a home made reprap. Can you point to such a cheap 3dPrinting service?

[matt3o]

I made a quick model on shapeways, that is the price for the lowest quality material.

[vvp]

Ok, you got me interested! I tried it with keywell part of Katy keyaboard.
That is about 1/4 of the full case. Well, probably less than 1/4 but it is the most interesting (and most complicated) part which contains the switches.

The cheapest option is White "Strong & Flexible Plastics". From the example pictures, it looks like SLA (no idea whether the future cheaper process will be SLA too). SLA is better than FDM/FFF. Nice. Now, the bad: the current price is $92. The future price (from Oct, 7th) is $62 (2 labour + 18 material + 42 printer volume (I had here incorrectly 42 material)). That means that full case would be probably about $250 + shipping + VAT. It would be nicer than from a reprap ... but hell, it better should be for such a price.

I shell continue to target home made repraps where one can make it for about €8 material cost if you can get access to a reprap for free.

[7bit]

you mean the side-printed legends? those would be totally feasible

No, he means the front-printed legends.


Tip: Make the case compatible to some Hyper keyboards!

[matt3o]

The cheapest option is White "Strong & Flexible Plastics". From the example pictures, it looks like SLA (no idea whether the future cheaper process will be SLA too). SLA is better than FDM/FFF. Nice. Now, the bad: the current price is $92. The future price (from Oct, 7th) is $62 (2 labour + 18 material + 42 material). That means that full case would be probably about $250 + shipping + VAT. It would be nicer than from a reprap ... but hell, it better should be for such a price.

I'll make a final model and see how much it comes out. Maybe you put too much material in the model. The quick test I made was just for the top part, but still far from $250

[vvp]

Uff, I'm sorry. I made an error in the description of the price breakdown using the new process (from Oct, 7th).
It should have been:
$2 labour + $18 material + $42 printer volume

So making the model thiner would not help that much (possibly by $10 at most on this part). I already tried to make it so that it has the mallest possible envelope (pritner volume). Special design for shapeaways can probably get price to about $200 + shipping + VAT.

Try to minimize the volume of the keyboard envelope. If it is SLS, then the envolope is probably the smallest cuboid containing the whole part. Just a guess. If somebody knows for sure then please post.

Maybe, in few years, they get a newer process where it gets even cheaper

[beltet]

This looks awesome. Will follow this.

[caseyallenshobe]

My first computer was a C64. I was five then and spent many long hours hunt-and-pecking on it. As I recall the keyboard was absolutely terrible. I tried it again a few years ago now knowing how to touch type and found it impossible to type on. What sort of switches did it use? Would this preserve the same rubbish feeling?

[SL89]

Matt3o yes yes 1000 times yes, i was looking into a C64x but it just wasnt happening. This is such a good idea.

[andrewjoy]

that pet is where its at i want that !

[matt3o]

What sort of switches did it use? Would this preserve the same rubbish feeling?

switches will be standard Cherry MX.

[Findecanor]

So is the C64 keyboard supposed to be in one or two parts? If you would go one-part then it would be less to print and there would be a hole on the underside, but that hole would not be visible.

Another way of making a one-piece plastic keyboard case would be to vacuu-form it. Maltron's case is made that way. The method allows for textured plastic, but not for scribed lines or fake air vents at the top.

BTW, I think it would be cool if the keyboard would have a C64-compatible joystick port. I think that could be done with the Teensy (combined keyboard + joystick device). However, I don't think the ATmega32U2 supports being anything but one USB device, so you would have to install a USB hub and a second Teensy to support a second joystick port.

[matt3o]

the keyboard is supposed to be 2 pieces, but I could actually have more and glue them together (based on pricing and feasibility).

vacuum forming is not actually feasible I think, due to the fins to the top.

The joystick is a nice idea actually. It might be possible, not via USB but rather using a custom connector that simply plugs into some additional teensy's pins... but it would be easier to connect to another USB port in your computer

[vvp]

However, I don't think the ATmega32U2 supports being anything but one USB device, so you would have to install a USB hub and a second Teensy to support a second joystick port.

There are at least 5 free endpoints on one usb port of ATmega32u4. So it can serve as at least 5 HID devices to the OS. Old joystick were either discrete or analog devices so you can use GPIO pins to scan an old joystick. Connecting an USB joystick would require the controller to be able to serve as USB master too. In such a case you need a different controller or you need to put an USB hub inside and connect both joystick and ATmega32u4 to the hub.

[beltet]

What about all those glorious front legends? They're the main thing I remember from my VIC-20 keyboard, as I didn't have a C-64. The thing had a nerdy presence all because of those:

I didn't have a C64 or a VIC-20, (I do now) but I always loved the symbols on the PET, the first computer keyboard I ever typed on:

Spoiler:

Or this! Designed by Porsche! :
http://deskthority.net/keyboards-f2/30t ... t8667.html

[mr_a500]

Or this! Designed by Porsche! :
http://deskthority.net/keyboards-f2/30t ... t8667.html

Yeah, that's more aerodynamic... but I prefer black keys (instead of "beige toffee"):



I wish somebody would set up a group buy for black doubleshot spherical keycaps for Amiga keyboards.

[beltet]

An amiga guy that prefer black keys?
Think i'm maybe getting to old, I love grey and grey, or brown on brown, and maybe some beige into that

[mr_a500]

An amiga guy that prefer black keys?

Beige is just too modern. That was the one thing I disliked about Amigas. I liked the pre-beige era of black, white, brown and blue. (sphericals and centred text, of course)

[Findecanor]

There are at least 5 free endpoints on one usb port of ATmega32u4. So it can serve as at least 5 HID devices to the OS. Old joystick were either discrete or analog devices so you can use GPIO pins to scan an old joystick. Connecting an USB joystick would require the controller to be able to serve as USB master too. In such a case you need a different controller or you need to put an USB hub inside and connect both joystick and ATmega32u4 to the hub.

You understood what I meant. Connecting an old joystick of the exact type that was used with the Commodore 64, not modern USB joysticks and gamepads.

The old digital joystick would appear as a digital USB joystick at the host.

However, USB endpoint and device are not the same thing. As I understand it, the Teensy can present itself only as a single device that would have both keyboard and joystick functionality - It can not present itself over USB as a keyboard, a separate joystick and as a second separate joystick.
Sure, you could have two DB9 connectors and use one for an Amiga mouse and the other for a joystick, but who would want to....

There could also be support for other types of vintage gamepads that are electrically compatible, or even a PC-style Game Port, but Atari-compatible joysticks are most in theme with the Commodore 64 and would be the easiest to support in firmware.
Which older type of game controller do you like the most?

Off-topic:

An amiga guy that prefer black keys?

There are lots of guys who have painted their Amigas black and put on black keycaps from the Amiga CDTV keyboard.

[mr_a500]

Off-topic:

An amiga guy that prefer black keys?

There are lots of guys who have painted their Amigas black and put on black keycaps from the Amiga CDTV keyboard.

I know. I've been looking for a CDTV keyboard for years. I still don't know if they're doubleshot. Probably not.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

My first computer was a C64. I was five then and spent many long hours hunt-and-pecking on it. As I recall the keyboard was absolutely terrible. I tried it again a few years ago now knowing how to touch type and found it impossible to type on. What sort of switches did it use?

Linear [wiki]Mitsumi hybrid switch[/wiki] with the earlier cruciform mount sliders. It's a conductive system over PCB; the linear variant shown on the wiki is very similar, but that's a pressure system with membranes. Mitsumi got through a lot of variants of this design.

[beltet]

Off-topic:

An amiga guy that prefer black keys?

There are lots of guys who have painted their Amigas black and put on black keycaps from the Amiga CDTV keyboard.

I know. I've been looking for a CDTV keyboard for years. I still don't know if they're doubleshot. Probably not.

I have seen 2(I think) on a Swedish bidding site a few month ago. Believe it was UK layout. If I see it again I can contact you.

[Findecanor]

What kind of layout do you want to support? I suppose that the keycaps are intended to be completely new also, I.e. no support for vintage keycaps with adapters like the MeC64 keyboard.

[vvp]

However, USB endpoint and device are not the same thing. As I understand it, the Teensy can present itself only as a single device that would have both keyboard and joystick functionality - It can not present itself over USB as a keyboard, a separate joystick and as a second separate joystick.

Yes, it would look like one device which has both keyboard and joystick functionality. I do not think this matters at all. OS will properly use it as a joystick or a keyboard or both.

Which older type of game controller do you like the most?

I do not use any old style controller. I had ZX-Spectrum and it came with a discrete joystick (the joystick X/Y axes actually worked as 4 buttons only). I used that one and it was fun but it is also a very old history
I have an old analog joystick downstairs, but it is based on potentiometers and those are flimsy. I do not use it. I use an off the shelf hall effect joystick now and I built myself hall effect based flight pedals. I probably would not use a device providing an analog axis if it is not based on either magnetic or capacitive sensors. But I can imagine taking an antique game controller and modernize its innards and use it
Now I'm trying to build a keyboard.