Beginning the diy custom keyboard journey

[amp625]

Hey guys, I'm fairly new here, and just wanted to see if I could get a few questions answered or some research verification. I've been designing and building my own electronics projects for years and thought a clean, simple mechanical keyboard could be my next build.

switches

I'm not really a gammer, I'm just a guy who wants a feel good keyboard. Reading other posts it seems the Cherry mx browns, maybe with some O-rings for noise would be the best choice. I don't want it too clicky, just that classic mechanical keyboard feel. A nice medium I guess. So far the cheapest siteI i've found for switches has been WASD

However, I did see that people use different types for the spacebar, arrow keys, and esc. What do you recommend for these keys different switch wise? Do you feel it really adds to the experience to have the additional switch variety?

I am also a tad confused about stabilizers. Which ones do you guys recommend?


Case

I'm not too worried about the case because I'm in some clubs at a university that allow me to use laser cutters. However, as i start to play with some CAD files, I'm a bit confused at how some approach the cutouts. So a few questions:

What are the units that people use for the keys?
Why do some cutout the switch holes with complex shapes, and other with simples squares?
What are some standard dimensions for Cherry mx switches?
How many support screw holes from top aluminum to bottom so the board doesn't warp much?
How much spacing between keys?
1.5mm or 2mm aluminum?

The design i keep looking to is Matteo's brown fox. I absolutely love how everything looks. If i could be pointed towards his CAD files, that would be excellent.


Keycaps

Like i said I love the brown keycaps from Matteo's brownfox. Should i just wait for group-buys in pimpmykeyboard or what?

What have you guys found to be the best combo of price and quality in your keycaps? Wheres the best sites?

[Laser]

I can't give you a long and detailed answer, just what i would *certainly* choose:

- if you make/buy/use a metal plate, it has to have "notches" at switch holes, in order for the mx switch top to be replaceable. This solves the question "what mx switches should i use" by allowing you to exchange them later (in order to try them all: blue, brown, clear, blacks etc.).
- if you like PBT caps, there are right now on the net some standard solutions which are not too expensive (of course, if you have the money, wait until the right groupbuy comes along and join it. or, do both). But, you can have nice thick Leopold PBT keys from ebay, in various formats (white, navy blue, black) either top, front printed or blank. Basically see the Leopold keycaps of seller *widebasket*: http://www.ebay.com/sch/widebasket/m.ht ... =&_armrs=1

[Halvar]

Welcome to DT!

I can't really help you with the switches, because that's mainly a question of personal taste. I'm not a gamer but a programmer, and I use MX brown with o-rings at work to have a silent keyboard. I work in an open office space. Otherwise, as far as Cherry MX is concerned, I would prefer MX blue.

It makes some sense to use a switch with a stronger spring for the spacebar, because it's much heavier and you use the thumb to press it. If you use MX brown, the space bar could be MX clear for example.

As for arrow keys or other keys, I don't see any reason to use a different switch. Maybe it's a gamer thing.

>> What are the units that people use for the keys?
19.05 mm or 0.75 inch is the standard distance center-to-center between keys, and key sizes are often described in this unit.

>> Why do some cutout the switch holes with complex shapes, and other with simples squares?
If you use the more complex shape, you have some leeway on both side of the switches, wich allows you to open the switch and exchange the slider without desoldering it. If you build your keyborad with MX brown now and later decide you prefer something else, you can just replace the slider for one of another color without much effort.

>> What are some standard dimensions for Cherry mx switches?
Look in our wiki, there should be some specifications.

>> How many support screw holes from top aluminum to bottom so the board doesn't warp much?
Don't know.

>> How much spacing between keys?
1 unit between centers, see above, for a standard alphanumeric key. Modifiers etc. are larger.

>> Like i said I love the brown keycaps from Matteo's brownfox. Should i just wait for group-buys in pimpmykeyboard or what?
You can still get them here, but they're not cheap: http://techkeys.us/collections/keycap-s ... /retro-set

>> What have you guys found to be the best combo of price and quality in your keycaps? Wheres the best sites?

That's a huge topic.

If you want to be free in your layout and top quality, you get the most flexibility with 7bit's and matt3o's group buys here on DT. They both have a preference for spherical caps though, which isn't everyone's cup of tea. 7bit's GBs can take very long, you need a lot of patience, but the choices are absolutely unparalleled.

Very flexible, but lower quality: http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/ Their legends are a less durable, and their caps are thinner, but you can fully customize your legends online and buy single caps for your custom layout.

If you use a standard layout, especially a US ANSI full or tenkeyless layout, there's lots and lots of other choices. ABS or PBT, cheap or high-end, different profiles, colors and layouts. Look around in our marketplace, on ebay and maybe on http://keypuller.com (most of that is probably unobtainable though), maybe ask more specific questions if you have a broad preference.

[amp625]

The actual set at techkey is sold out unfortunately. But isn't 22$ for a set of keycaps relatively cheap?

[Muirium]

Welcome to the fruity club of custom keyboard makers!

A good source for MX switches is 7bit: he sells them in a load of varieties for 0.65 Euros each plus 4 Euros for global shipping. The downsides of buying from him is he's a little opaque about when things are due (always order things already he has in stock or you'll be waiting months) and he's just gone on vacation:

http://deskthority.net/group-buys-f50/c ... t2760.html

But you do get the mysterious fun of ordering via his bot. He's also a great source for caps. Well, if you're very, very patient.

I'd say go with MX reds. Switches are, just as Halvar says, an entirely personal thing. I like reds and blacks better than Cherry's other switches, for what it's worth. They happen to be the quietest of the bunch, although linear switches aren't as silent as you might think. Here's a recording of my Ducky with MX reds:

Greens (which sound the same as their lighter brothers: MX blues) are like this:

Plenty of bottoming out and topping out noise from them both. But the clicks do make a lot of difference in a shared workspace! MX clicky switches make the highest pitch clicks I've heard from keyboards, and can annoy a lot of people.

Got anything in mind for a layout? Matteo has experimented with quite a few, and even tried a compact keyboard with zero stabilised keys: Bianca.



Now he's got his own CNC, he's working on a custom keyboard kit of sorts. Here's his self-manufactured case prototype:




WASD are indeed the source for Costar stabs, the kind that Matteo likes so much. They come as separate components for cap inserts and plate inserts and wires. You need the lot.

[cinnamonrollz]

If you want a classic mechanical keyboard just get a classic mechanical keyboard! go with an ibm model m for $50

Browns do not feel at all like older tactile mechanical keyboards. Mostly linear with a little scratch that is barely noticeable. Mx greens would be the most like the classic tactile alps or ibm board. Keep in mind it will be abit louder than mx browns. Good luck.

[Halvar]

The actual set at techkey is sold out unfortunately. But isn't 22$ for a set of keycaps relatively cheap?

Oh, sorry, it was still available when I last checked, and iirc the base set was $139.

[Muirium]

Browns are my least favourite MX switch, in the hand. But I still haven't given a full keyboard of them a fair shot.

Anyway, most classic keyboards were in fact linear. IBM was the mother of click. And no MX switch really feels much like Model M, Model F, Beamspring or Selectric. Clicky MX can be fun, but I wouldn't call it classic.

[amp625]

Okay, so it wasn't really right for me to say 'classic' cause i've never owned a mechanical board. But i think i just mean more moderate switch. I don't want crazy clicky or loud. Just a nice mechanical feel, and seems browns have gotten some good reviews on that front, but i guess I'd really have to just try it for myself. Does the brown feel mushy? Will you know when you activate the button?

And no. I'm not going to buy my a ibm board! I want to create my own thank you very much.

[Halvar]

MX browns don't feel mushy, and they have some subtle tactility so when you use them for a while you know very well when the button is activated and don't need to bottom out any more, or at least you bottom out without force, which is all the difference to rubber domes. The tactility is very weak though, and some people say they just feel like "scratchy reds", but IMO these people mostly just haven't used them long enough to have learned to feel them.

MX clears have a clearer tactility, but their spring is the stiffest of them all so they need a lot more force. I don't mind them, but prefer browns. My favourite, as I said, are MX blue because you get a very clear tactile and acoustic feedback from activation. It's the one that feels the most "mechanical", and you learn very easily how to type differently from a rubber dome board. On the other hand they're pretty high-pitched and might give you collegues something to complain about.

[Madhias]

About to use which switch is really personal preference. As written in this thread Muirium suggests Reds, Halvar Browns or Blues, and i would say definitely Clears. But i also like Greens (and Whites). I don't like Browns at all. It's just great to have different keyboards with different switches to change them from time to time.

[jacobolus]

I've been designing and building my own electronics projects for years and thought a clean, simple mechanical keyboard could be my next build.

Sounds like a great project. I would start by building a custom switchplate (and possibly custom case, depending on the shape you want), and then hand-wiring switches on the back; for a one-off, ends up easier IMO than designing a PCB and getting it fabricated.

I'm not really a gammer, I'm just a guy who wants a feel good keyboard. Reading other posts it seems the Cherry mx browns, maybe with some O-rings for noise would be the best choice.

I personally find all MX switches to be uninspiring. Keyswitch preferences are very personal, but I recommend you try to find someone near you who has several keyboards to try. If you can, try Cherry, Alps, SMK, Hi-Tek, Omron, etc.

IBM buckling spring switches and Topre switches are both also popular around here, but they are much more difficult to build into custom keyboard projects.

I would recommend harvesting switches from a donor keyboard instead of buying new switches. The sweet timeframe for keyswitches to use in custom keyboards is ~1985–1992. Switches older than that are typically a bit of a pain to work with (not to mention usually linear, non-tactile), and later switches are mostly inferior quality.

You’ll get switches that are just as cheap or cheaper by harvesting them from an old keyboard instead of buying new switches by themselves, and there are better and more interesting choices of switch feel.

* * *

Have you figured out what kind of shape you want in your keyboard? I recommend something with split halves (or at least some extra distance between halves and a bit of angle), a split spacebar, and some extra thumb keys. Various other “ergonomic” features (for instance using a column-based rather than row-based stagger) are also nice, but extra hand separation/angle and more thumb keys are in my opinion the most important.

Here are some of my doodles: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=56095

[amp625]

So far what i do recognize is that, to truly test a certain switch to see if it's well suited, you need to actually use a whole board with that switch for a decent amount of time. That being said, I don't think i want to invest in 5 or so different single switches and get an inaccurate test. So think i just have to dive in. And doing a bit more research and having a change of heart for a more solid feeling of tactility, I think ill go with the blue MXs. I'll probably put some O-rings on them to limit noise a bit though.

I recommend something with split halves (or at least some extra distance between halves and a bit of angle), a split spacebar, and some extra thumb keys.

I think I'll try to keep it simple this time around. I just want a compact, and somewhat minimalist keyboard. Like i said, i really do like the brown fox.

The other thing I'm a bit confused about is the cutouts on the case. You guy said that the complex shaped cutouts make it so you can remove the switches without de-soldering. I'm just a bit confused about how these things are fitting in there. How do the notches hook into the switch? And if you just have a plain square is the only thing from stopping the switch from falling out the top of the board the wiring?

[Laser]

The other thing I'm a bit confused about is the cutouts on the case. You guy said that the complex shaped cutouts make it so you can remove the switches without de-soldering. I'm just a bit confused about how these things are fitting in there. How do the notches hook into the switch? And if you just have a plain square is the only thing from stopping the switch from falling out the top of the board the wiring?

No, a plain square firmly keeps the switch into plate AND prevents switch's top part to unhook from its bottom. The notches don't go *into* the switch, on the contrary, they are 4 elements enlarging the hole, so that the ears of the top switch's part can unhook from the bottom:

[Muirium]

Exactly. All MX switches have identical top and bottom halves of the outer shell. To convert a red into a blue, for instance, all you need to swap is the slider, or "stem" as people like to call Cherry's. To convert it into a green (which is the heavy version of blue) you'd also pop in a new spring. All quite easy once you have the lid off.

Well, comparatively easy. I haven't dared to try this stuff with Matias / Alps yet!

[amp625]

Okay so, I've started playing around with some CAD for a layout, and i'm confused about one thing.

So if the units are measured from the center of one key to the center of the next one, how do you deal with key caps of different sizes that are right next to each other. In specific how do you know the space between two different caps, because each of those two caps will have a different length hanging off the switch?

Do you just take half of the measurement per unit on each side and then add each:

19/2 + 28.5/2 = 23.75

[Muirium]

Looks about right. Switches are usually dead centre under their caps, with a handful of exceptions like stepped Caps Lock keys (don't use those!) and some oddball space bars. Maybe PM Matteo for confirmation about exact dimensions, though.

Actually, here's his vector for a bunch of custom plates and keyboard layers that we did last year:

http://deskthority.net/resources/file/9227

[amp625]

So I'm thinking I might get chastised for asking this, but do you guys feel you need 'F' keys? If I'm gong for a compact board to likes of Mateo's brownfox then i wouldn't have them. Thoughts?

[Muirium]

Fn + 1 = F1. Fn + 9 = F9. Fn + "=" = F12. That's how I do it, and the HHKB of course.

[Laser]

So I'm thinking I might get chastised for asking this, but do you guys feel you need 'F' keys? If I'm gong for a compact board to likes of Mateo's brownfox then i wouldn't have them. Thoughts?

This is why i bought a plate like this (from DanielT):



Note the right shift: it is shorter and it has a FN key at its right - see HHKB layout, which many people swears it's the 'right' one for compact keyboards. Hint: check where HHKB has its arrows mapped, then figure out why FN position helps in this case.

[Muirium]

Also:



A little something I made last year. The HHKB + Poker hybrid layout is arguably the best thing out there for 60% keyboards. Plenty of mods, great key set compatibility, and all the HHKB Fn layer goodness intact!

[amp625]

But i have always enjoyed a defined set of bottom right corner arrow keys. Whats wrong with brownfox???

[Muirium]

Nothing's "wrong" with it. Brownfox is just a different set of compromises. HHKB style 60% layouts are almost perfectly symmetric and one column narrower (15 vs 16). Brownfox's arrows push Fn further over (which is really annoying to use if you're used to an HHKB as you're offset a whole column) and the three keys above Fn look a bit of an afterthought, even for Matteo. I'm drawn to the conceptual clarity of pure 60%. What you find in slightly larger keyboards (in fact everything between 60% and full TKL) is confusion and compromise, like this:



That whole edge of the keyboard is hard to get right unless you go full navigation block, like a TKL, or go 60% and omit it entirely. At least to my eyes.

[amp625]

So I've been looking into the very confusing market of keycaps, and can't get the right naming for the keycaps I like aesthetically. I know they are DSA, but they're different then say WASDs keycaps. They are more rounded, and I like the look a lot better. Where could i find keycaps like the ones below?

[amp625]

And is there reason to believe that there will be another granite or retro run for gb?

[crimzongryphon]

Wow. The timing is impeccable. I was just about to post pretty much this exact thread to ask for opinions. I'm in pretty much the same situation as you amp + I love the custom keyboards Matt3o has made. I still have a few questions however:

Does anyone have a template for the holes where you mount the key switches or the dimensions of the little notches? I know the whole thing is 14mm but aside from that I'm unsure. Do I even need the little notches, I don't really plan on changing switches.

Is there a program that allows me to easily plan out the keycap design like jacobolus did? It looks really nice and since I'm doing this for a project which I have to show design evidence for it would be helpful.

I previously made a post about a tandem cherry g80 keyboard thingy which didn't sell so I'm deciding to salvage caps from it and make a compact keyboard + numpad board + an f1-f16 board. I'm going to shift some keys about which will leave me with 2 keys. Out of the all the keys in the middle section of the keyboard (PrtScn to RightArrow) which 2 are the least useful? I don't think I've ever used Home, End, Insert, ScrLk or Pause keys but I may have to in the future. Which 2 keys personally do you use least?

Also side note: ~105 mx blacks (possibly vintage) for sale any offers?

Sorry if I should have made a new post for this, I would appreciate any advice though!
Thanks!

[matt3o]

And is there reason to believe that there will be another granite or retro run for gb?

Granite R3 might happen next year. There are words of a R2 for the retro set but in SA family.

I'm also working on various tutorials for keyboard makers, too much time, too little things to do... now wait, the other way around

[amp625]

Sorry for being a nag, but does next year mean january-feburary, or later on?

[jacobolus]

Sorry for being a nag, but does next year mean january-feburary, or later on?

Signature Plastics’ entire dye-sub capacity is being taken up for months from the current granite orders. I sure hope matt3o waits like 6 months for the next round, so we can have a chance to actually get some other designs made.

[matt3o]

SP lead time is now 6-8 weeks instead of 4-6 for DSA (but SA and DCS are still good). I'll be working on another project right now then we'll think about Granite R3. Probably 3 months from R2 delivery.