a tactile keyboard with soft keys

[kemerd]

Hello,

I have long used a microsoft internet keyboard, which I was mostly happy with and carried it with me for about 10 years. Recently, I bought an old IBM M (which I knew from old days and used on the school's computer lab when I was a student about 20 years back), and really like it because I could type faster but more importantly with better accuracy. The problem I had was that after using it for about 2 weeks my small and ring fingers on my both hands developed some pain which become worse and worse over time.

So, I had to switch back to my old keyboard. Even that did not solve the pain problem and I switched to a generic Fujitsu keyboard that came with one of my old workstations. Fujitsu have very soft keys but it is not so nice to type with. Within 2 weeks the pain has gone but I cannot type accurately with Fujitsu.

So, I think a need a keyboard with "very soft" keys but have a bit more traveling distance than my Fujitsu (which is a flat keyboard with notebook like feeling). Any suggestions please (I live in France, so should be available there)?

Cheers,
Kemal

[webwit]

Do you mean with "soft keys" that the keys must be mushy, or that they should require little force to actuate? Perhaps you will like the Cherry MX Reds, MX Browns, or a Topre keyboard.

If you have professional demands for your keyboard, you shouldn't limit yourself to availability in France. I.e. Keyboardco is probably the best keyboard shop in Europe and has keyboards with French layout. If it would carry the keyboard you want and it isn't available in France, why limit yourself? Many French members here have bought from that shop.

[kemerd]

Thanks for your reply.

What I meant was it should require very little force to press the key but should also be difficult to press it by an accident. So, I guess that translates to a key whose travel distance is a bit longer than a notebook keyboard.

it seems that good keyboards are really expensive and I am willing to pay for it. Bur I want to make sure that it is good for me before I buy it. That is why I want it be available in France so that I could try it by myself

Cheers,
K.

P.S: I live in France but I actually use US, UK, or Turkish-Q layouts (as they are all similar). So, I would go to shop, test the keyboard to see it fits and then have to order it from abroad anyway

[N8N]

I'd vote for Cherry Blues myself - they seem to be more tactile than browns. They do click though.

Cherry Clears would be another option, they don't click, but use a heavier spring than browns/blues.

I'd try both if you can before you make a decision. I don't know if clears are more widely available in EU than in US (where they're pretty much not available, unless you order a Deck...)

[wupi]

Yep, try the cherry blue, clears and maybe a Topre, but a Topre is very expensive but the money worth.

[webwit]

Try a switch try pcb or bag!
http://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=780
http://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=64

[Findecanor]

If you want something that is somewhat like the IBM Model M but lighter, then I would suggest a keyboard that is built with Cherry MX "Blue" switches. The feel is not just lighter, but a little bit different. They click and actuate half-way down the stroke -- the IBM Model M click and actuate 3/4 down the stroke.

One common keyboard that has these switches is Razer Blackwidow. That keyboard is widely available in stores and there is a window on the box through which you can try pressing a few keys.
However, I would suggest that you buy a Filco Majestouch or a Filco Majestouch Tenkeyless instead. They look better, and the layout is not as weird. The legends on the Filco may wear off after a while, but other than that it may be the last keyboard that you will ever need.
The "tenkeyless" are nice if you don't need any numeric key pad, because you can place the mouse closer to the keyboard and can avoid shoulder strain.

[webwit]

Slightly offtopic, I found an interesting phenomenon with Razer (and some others such as Thermaltake, but Razer especially). These guys are smart, they have a plan. I follow some feeds which pick up keyboard news from the Internet, and what is constant is the wave of Razer reviews and special offers coming from blogs, tech sites, man and dog, who all received review units. From everywhere.. except from sites where they know their mechanical keyboards. So they do this on purpose, because on sites like this their keyboards will be put into place as a fine mechanical for a great price, but not as good as alternatives. Their products are for starters in the mechanical keyboard markets, the masses that don't get into sites like this, but heard this thing about mechanical keyboards, read some review on a blog, and buy a Razer, unchallenged by google results of lesser reviews.

[ndp]

[...]
P.S: I live in France but I actually use US, UK, or Turkish-Q layouts (as they are all similar). So, I would go to shop, test the keyboard to see it fits and then have to order it from abroad anyway

The switches bag is a good idea.
But, if you are eager to try some switches and are located near Paris, I can let you try alps and topre keyboards.

[kemerd]

The switches bag is a good idea.
But, if you are eager to try some switches and are located near Paris, I can let you try alps and topre keyboards.

That would be really great. Very much appreciated. Where could I come to see the keyboards?

K.

[The Solutor]

Slightly offtopic, I found an interesting phenomenon with Razer (and some others such as Thermaltake, but Razer especially). These guys are smart, they have a plan. I follow some feeds which pick up keyboard news from the Internet, and what is constant is the wave of Razer reviews coming from blogs, tech sites, man and dog, who all received review units. From everywhere.. except from sites where they know their mechanical keyboards. So they do this on purpose, because on sites like this their keyboards will be put into place as a fine mechanical for a great price, but not as good as alternatives. Their products are for starters in the mechanical keyboard markets, the masses that don't get into sites like this, but heard this thing about mechanical keyboards, read some review on a blog, and buy a Razer, unchallenged by google results of lesser reviews.

From their POV this is exactly what they have to do.

When Apple came out with it's crappy dumbphone never cared to be reviewed from the people who used a smartphone for 5 years. Apple cared to have the support from the generic newspapers, TVs and so on.
They cared to sell a crap iphone to the people who never saw a smarphone, or even a cellphone, like most of the people in the US, and they sold a lot of them, then managed to improve the product.

The same happened with windows over other better OSes, and in countless other cases.

Is sad but the world works this way. And to be honest cherry filco and others, sleeping on the laurels are partners here.

[ndp]

The switches bag is a good idea.
But, if you are eager to try some switches and are located near Paris, I can let you try alps and topre keyboards.

That would be really great. Very much appreciated. Where could I come to see the keyboards?

K.

You have a PM

[kemerd]

The switches bag is a good idea.
But, if you are eager to try some switches and are located near Paris, I can let you try alps and topre keyboards.

That would be really great. Very much appreciated. Where could I come to see the keyboards?

K.

You have a PM

Today, I saw ndp's keyboard collection. I thank him here for allowing me to test his keyboards.

Here is my recollection:

1. I hated Cherry brown switches, they does not sound even like a good switch, I thought my 20 Euro keyboard has more refined keys

2. I liked cheery reds (well, home made one), feels much better when pressed, my second favourite

3. Did not like alps keys (I tried two of them), both are a bit stiff for me

4. I loved his little topre keyboard. This is really surprising for me. Because, I am by no means a keyboard enthusiast, and, thought that is was a little over-hyped. Because that is what enthusiasts usually do. But, it truly has the most refined key-press I experienced on any keyboard. The problem I have is it is a bit too expensive.
So, in the end, it seems I'll settle with a keyboard using cherry red switches (or perhaps order full size a topre board, still thinking about it)

Cheers,
K.

[intealls]

The browns grow on you. I hated them at first as well, but after using a board with them for two months, I actually think I prefer them to blues. You need to be/become a light typist though.

[N8N]

Eh, I'm using a board with browns right now, but after having felt clears and ergo clears I think that either would be preferable to browns for typing. Really, ergo clears are what browns should have been

[intealls]

I had a clear board, but sold it since I felt it was too stiff. Never tried clears with black springs though. The browns pretty much force me to stop mashing the keys. A light touch is needed, otherwise, they'll just feel like raspy linears.

[N8N]

The board that I put together with "ergo clears" I used clear stems and the springs from the browns that were originally in there... so they have the light touch of browns or blues (I believe that those use the same springs) but have more tactility than browns and don't have the high pitched click of the blues. I really like them but sometimes wish that there was an intermediate spring to try, as the brown spring is a little light for me and the clear spring is OK but a little heavier than it needs to be.

Anyway, with the brown spring, the clear stem is definitely more tactile, and the "bump" starts closer to the top of the travel, and is longer and smoother. Kind of like a less crisp Alps, if you will. However, I find it easier to not bottom out on the clear/brown combo than on either Alps or browns, because the increased tactility lets my fingers know to stop pressing, but the force required to move the switch doesn't fall off as dramatically as it does with the Alps. I really do like them and think that they're worth a try.

I've not tried them with the black spring, but it seems as it'd be almost as heavy as the out of the box clears. Which aren't bad, really. If you like a light typing keyboard but lots of tactility, clears with brown or blue springs aren't bad at all.

[webwit]

Cherry fanboys still looking for the holy Cherry grail. There is none. Vertical leaf switches are inherently faulty by default. You're rasping plastic bits with metal bits. IBM never did silly stuff like that. Cherry switches are second-rate.

[webwit]

Hence I advise the IBM Displaywriter. Isn't it a beauty? As you can see from the closeup of the USB connector in relation to the keyboard, the keyboard is really small!

[intealls]

Well, seeing as how most ALPS switches actuate at about 65-70g, and BS at about the same, there isn't really another readily available, realistically priced alternative for lighter switches, now is there?

[N8N]

Eh, when IBM comes out with a keyboard that feels like a Model M (or Model F- never tried one of those though) but with a lighter touch (because I've grown used to same) and no clicking, so I can use it in the office without getting Looks of Disapproval, I'll be on it like white on rice. Until then, I'll have to make do with my "faulty" key switch technology - which is still head and shoulders superior to the crap that sadly seems to come packaged with all new PCs these days.

Seriously, I have two Model Ms and love them, if I didn't have to work in an open office I probably never would have felt the need to enter Cherry-land.

Edit: that is actually a pretty cool looking keyboard. I'm guessing interfacing to a modern PC would be... problematic though? What does that use for switches? Beam springs?

[webwit]

It's the ugliest of the beam spring keyboards

[webwit]

I see it like this: Before the (personal) computer, the typewriter was all there is, and naturally through time the quality of the keyboard evolved, as a great deal of the competition was over the feel of the keyboard. The end result of this (for IBM) was the IBM Selectric. The beam spring is the IBM Selectric feel transferred to a computer keyboard without regard to cost - no compromise. Then they started cutting costs, by introducing the buckling spring, to sort of simulate that feel, but at a much cheaper cost. Computer keyboards follow the reverse evolution path compared to typewriters - the battle of the pc market was fought on price and the box, so the keyboard to be included became cheaper and cheaper. First the capacitive Model F XT keyboards, which were best, then the AT keyboards (slightly cheaper construction), and then the non-capacitive Model M keyboards. (Then of course rubber dome). This line has a decline in quality and an increasing switch activation force. One of my beam spring keyboards measured 49g for activation in average.

[The Solutor]

Cherry fanboys still looking for the holy Cherry grail. There is none. Vertical leaf switches are inherently faulty by default.

It's the end result that count, and an ergo clear board feels way better than a BS one.

IBM managed to made a cheap and durable keyboard, its merit ends here.

Cherry switches are second-rate.

The cherry keyboards were considered an upgrade to the standard IBM keyboards 30 years ago and the situation is more or less unchanged, none of the two are perfect, but all that pleasure when typing on the BS is more matter of nostalgia than real better feeling.

[daedalus]

It's the end result that count, and an ergo clear board feels way better than a BS one.

In your opinion

but all that pleasure when typing on the BS is more matter of nostalgia than real better feeling.

In your opinion

[The Solutor]

It's the end result that count, and an ergo clear board feels way better than a BS one.

In your opinion

Obviously. (It's the best opinion I know).

P.S. btw the difference between me and you, is that I tried both of them.

[daedalus]

Have you tried a Model F or a Beam Spring?

[The Solutor]

Not the latter, remember in In Italy we had Olivetti there was almost no point in buying IBM material.
BTW I've not mentioned nor criticized such keyboard for a reason.

[webwit]

The cherry keyboards were considered an upgrade to the standard IBM keyboards 30 years ago and the situation is more or less unchanged, none of the two are perfect, but all that pleasure when typing on the BS is more matter of nostalgia than real better feeling.

Do you have some source or are you presenting your personal current opinion as a general old opinion of a larger group? That would be lame. That would be like saying your own personal opinion doesn't carry much weight.

Buckling springs were patented. Cherry and Alps are alternative, cheap solutions which are unfortunately inferior by its rasping nature. This design is a sacrifice between vertical compactness and limited cost on one hand, and quality on the other. I.e. its problems are by design.

[daedalus]

Not the latter, remember in In Italy we had Olivetti there was almost no point in buying IBM material.

Ironically, IBM made their European beam spring keyboards in Italy.

I will try Clears some day. From descriptions, I reckon they are good switches. They could easily be my favorite Cherry switches. I may even like them better than Topres. But at the end of the day, a bit of plastic bumping off some thin metal contact simply cannot provide the solid feel I've come to enjoy from a buckling spring mechanism. It's that simple.