Scratchiness of IBM Model M vs Model F Switches

[Hypersphere]

I have noticed that the switches in my IBM Model M SSK feel scratchy, whereas the switches in my IBM Model F XT feel smooth. Is this a known operational difference? If so, what accounts for it? Are there ways to reduce the scratchiness of Model M switches?

[Muirium]

Sell it, and move on from Model M.

There's a lot of people still looking to get their first SSK out there. If you've graduated to the stratospheric heights where even an SSK isn't up to snuff, time to let it go.

[Madhias]

I have two SSK in use currently, and they do feel different. The one is much more 'crisper', lighter and nicer to type on, and the other one is heavier, 'dirtier' and sounds deeper. Another Model M, a 101 key model, feels different, and the one i sent matt3o was very strange compared to the other ones i had so far.

[Hypersphere]

@Muirium: But I really like the layout and balanced looks of the SSK. Yet I have to admit, it would be so much better if it felt and sounded like my XT.

[Hypersphere]

I have two SSK in use currently, and they do feel different. The one is much more 'crisper', lighter and nicer to type on, and the other one is heavier, 'dirtier' and sounds deeper. Another Model M, a 101 key model, feels different, and the one i sent matt3o was very strange compared to the other ones i had so far.

Do you think these differences reflect the state of the rivets in each of the boards -- the relative need each of them has for a bolt mod?

[Muirium]

There's, literally, a lot of moving parts in these boards. Could be down to the springs as much as anything.

I wonder what a Model M with heavier flippers feels like? Far as I can tell, that's the crucial difference with the Model F. More mobile mass. Capsense is icing on the cake, but not make or break.

[Hypersphere]

There's, literally, a lot of moving parts in these boards. Could be down to the springs as much as anything.

I wonder what a Model M with heavier flippers feels like? Far as I can tell, that's the crucial difference with the Model F. More mobile mass. Capsense is icing on the cake, but not make or break.

I haven't weighed the hammer-spring assemblies or the hammers or springs separately, but these bits seem quite light even if the Model F flippers are larger than those on the M. The F switches are lighter -- requiring less actuation force (60-65g vs 65-70g for the M switch). The key travel on the F also feels shorter than on the M, but I do not have data on key displacements. The F feels more precise with a sharp metallic click; the M feels raspy with more of a plastic on plastic sound.

[Madhias]

I bolt/screw modded both SSK's the same way (here are some images), but the rivets/springs were different, the color, the age, maybe everything! The brown models are the ones i like most, they are great. The lighter colored ones are heavier, and feel definitely different.



I have replacement springs and rivets from Unicomp and also from Clickykeyboards, and want to compare everything sometimes. All rivets have different colors, the Unicomp rivets are white (or beige).

Sell it, and move on from Model M.

If you do so, write me a PM! I would not sell a SSK these days, or at least as long as i can afford it to have one... or two... or more

[Hypersphere]

@madhias: Interesting display of the visual differences in the spring-hammer assemblies, perhaps reflecting different metals in the springs and/or different degrees of corrosion.

No, I have no plans to sell my SSK anytime soon. Although I might consider a trade for a Kishsaver....

[fohat]

I have said many times that I believe that it is the stack of metal plates, in a complex intertwining field of tension and compression forces, that gives the Model F its springing, singing, life energy.

Add to that the mass of the platform that your thrusting keystrokes are prancing on top of, and you have an intoxicating dance stage of motion and energy. The dreaded Ripster once showed us how to mold a lead ballast block using wood and aluminum forms over the backyard grill. Adding a kilogram or 2 to any keyboard would probably improve it.

I have a collection of Model M spring hammers in various colors from transparent to black. There is precious little difference.

Going from the original thick black rubber mat to a new thin white latex one will make a much bigger difference than changing springs.

But I would love to find a way to O-ring IBM buckling springs just at the very bottom of their travel.

[Muirium]

My guess: put something soft where the caps strike the top of the barrels.

[cinnamonrollz]

Honsetly from all the model m's and f's Ive tried I believe that the scratchiness truly lies in how heavily used it is.
I have an m5-2 thats almost new and feels super scratchy. However many of my other model m's which have seen more use seem smoother. I would like to think its from the plastic key scraping against the barrel.

On a side note, out of all the model fs ive tried none have been nearly as scratchy as that m5-2.

Thats my experience. Take it as you please.

[0100010]

The only time I have run into a scratchy BS switch, was if the spring was not "straight". If you look at the image madhias posted, you see how the springs seem to point many directions, even though the hammers are essentially in alignment?

When I re-assemble a BS board, I try to make sure the springs are all pointing towards the center of the barrel - otherwise you can sometimes feel the spring binding against the stem during the stroke.

The other thing to check for - is the bottom lips of the stem don't have any flash on them. I ran into this a couple times with new stems from Unicomp - where a little bit of flash would rub against the spring making it feel scratchy. Quick work with a razor can clean this up.

[jacobolus]

I think the scratchiness is plastic-on-plastic friction from the keycap sliding down the barrel, and results from some combination of dirt and heavy use. If you clean the grit out of the barrels (by thoroughly washing them), and the scratchiness is still there, then you probably have to resort to adding some lubricant.

[Hypersphere]

I think the scratchiness is plastic-on-plastic friction from the keycap sliding down the barrel, and results from some combination of dirt and heavy use. If you clean the grit out of the barrels (by thoroughly washing them), and the scratchiness is still there, then you probably have to resort to adding some lubricant.

Lubricating the stems makes intuitive sense to me, but I have heard that lubricating stems in an IBM buckling spring keyboard can lead to problems and that it better not to lubricate. I hope that someone can elaborate on this.

[Hypersphere]

The only time I have run into a scratchy BS switch, was if the spring was not "straight". If you look at the image madhias posted, you see how the springs seem to point many directions, even though the hammers are essentially in alignment?

When I re-assemble a BS board, I try to make sure the springs are all pointing towards the center of the barrel - otherwise you can sometimes feel the spring binding against the stem during the stroke.

The other thing to check for - is the bottom lips of the stem don't have any flash on them. I ran into this a couple times with new stems from Unicomp - where a little bit of flash would rub against the spring making it feel scratchy. Quick work with a razor can clean this up.

These are plausible causes and interesting suggestions for correcting them. Thanks.

[seebart]

@Muirium: But I really like the layout and balanced looks of the SSK. Yet I have to admit, it would be so much better if it felt and sounded like my XT.

my never ending keyboard dream that will probably never come ture: SSK layout with IBM F XT feel and build quality!

[Madhias]

my never ending keyboard dream that will probably never come ture: SSK layout with IBM F XT feel and build quality!

But if you have the complete package of a SSK in mind, it is one of the best compromises: modern layout, better click than lots of other switches, weight/size ratio perfect! Of course a XT feels better, and is heavier - but that layout! That size! Not speaking of a XTant version.

[Hypersphere]

<Muirium typed over this post. He is tired and should know his way around the moderator interface by now. Sigh>

[Muirium]

Sorry about that. Here's a peek behind the curtain so you know where I slipped up. All posts, every user's, have these controls for mods:

Screen Shot 2014-11-23 at 06.57.09 pm.png (9.8 KiB) Viewed 7782 times

That's so we can zap spam, and generally edit out bad stuff. But to my tired eyes, the pen on the left looked like the quote bubble. So I wound up over-typing Hyper's post instead while quoting him for a reply. There is no Undo. Bugger. Mia culpa!

Not speaking of a XTant version.

Then we shall speak of it. Your parts list: an XT, an Xwhatsit F controller, and a seat in Wcass's coming GB. I'm likely doing it myself.

(in fact, I am typing this on my new WASD V2 87 with mx browns).

So much for swearing off MX, eh? I guess there must be something in there… or simple Shiny New Keyboard Syndrome just won't begone.

[Madhias]

[Muirium]

Edited again! Man… I'm going offline before I do any more! (Exercise and early, so early, long winter nights make me doze… No one go selling Kishsavers right now, kay?)

[Madhias]

Not yet, not yet

[Hypersphere]

<Muirium typed over this post. He is tired and should know his way around the moderator interface by now. Sigh>

Yikes! I had no idea it was possible to obliterate someone else's post! Hmm....

As I recall, I was merely agreeing with madhias about the beautiful layout and proportions of the IBM SSK, and reaffirming that the typing feel was better than that of most keyboards, with the arguable exceptions being Topre and IBM Model F keyboards.

I mentioned that I also like various Alps (including Matias) switches, as well as NMB Hi-Tek space invaders.

The various components of the Cherry mx spectrum bring up the rear (IMO), but I do rather like my new WASD V2 87 with mx Browns*, and I am considering revisiting reds and greens.

* My recent review is here:

http://deskthority.net/review-f45/wasd- ... t9218.html

[Hypersphere]

<snip>

(in fact, I am typing this on my new WASD V2 87 with mx browns).

So much for swearing off MX, eh? I guess there must be something in there… or simple Shiny New Keyboard Syndrome just won't begone.

Yes, thought I had done, but I keep wondering if I am missing something. After all, Cherry mx is rather prevalent, as if it were the Microsoft of the keyboard world. I had tried mx browns only slightly, and this seems to be the most popular all-around mx switch. I also wanted to give WASD a try, and it is one of the few companies that use Costar-type wire stabilizers, which are said to provide excellent stability and a crisp, non-mushy response.

So, here I am with a new WASD V2 87 with mx browns and Costar-type stabilizers. Got the "barebones" (naked) option, and populated the board with some nice Imsto dye-sub PBT keycaps. Remappable Fn key. Red pinhole LED CapsLock indicator. Useful DIP switch settings. Micro-USB detachable cable. Altogether not too bad. Browns are better than I had remembered. Now I am thinking of giving greens and reds another try.

[Muirium]

Only forum moderators can edit or delete other users' posts. For better or for worse, Webwit gave me that power along with the Club Secretary rôle. My mangled edit of your post was caused by one fell slip: I pressed the wrong button, and duly edited what I mistook as a quoted copy of your post (like when you or I hit the (correct) quote button) which I only discovered was the original when I saw "my" reply come up with your avatar on it! Alas, there's no reverting it. I've done this once before and I really better pay bloody attention to the extra buttons or: three strikes and Webwit's quite right to clip my wings!

Anyway, let's see, ah yes: keyboards…

Novelty is good. Change is better than a rest. And a new keyboard is always a nice luxury if you fancy it. I like to mix things up too. I'm on my XT which hasn't much if anything over my Kishsaver, but I like being tested by its girth! Ah, that spacebar and the bizarre mods. Although, I'll admit, I'm really imagining an XTant. The symmetry, solidness, and key feel of this thing are just crying out for a modernised layout. Wcass's kit will likely be "my next keyboard". And a donor XT I guess, as this one has sentimental value.

Sometimes I find myself defending MX instead of just my usual grumbling about its "ubiquity". (If only it truly were!) MX is a fine switch, and the MX world is always worth keeping an eye on. I like IBM a lot better, personally, but no corner of the keyboard kingdom is better than all the others. Why exclude yourself? Besides budget and storage space!

I'll explore Topre properly, sometime when I can afford to. For now, they are elusive, almost supernatural things to me. My taste of a Realforce and an HHKB were both brief borrows. My NovaTouch is nice, but it's no true blood Topre. There's probably some rock with a sword in it somewhere I'm overlooking before I get this all sorted out.

[Hypersphere]

<snip>
... but no corner of the keyboard kingdom is better than all the others.
<snip>

But of course some corners are better than others!

Although to be charitable, I suppose we could say that each corner is well suited to particular ecological niche in the keyboard ecosystem....

[Touch_It]

I need most time and monies. So many ibm keyboard projects I want to do. I love me some buckling spring. On my bucket list of keyboards are a beamspring and topre. But at any rate between my f, m, and m2 I don't feel any scratchines on any of them though for the most pay my model m keyboards seemed like they had little use.