Topre PBT Spacebars

[Hypersphere]

Excellent. Thanks, matt3o, for your dedication to this and many other projects!

[002]

From test with saturated salt water I can say that space bars from NEWS is not ABS. I saw Realforce(101) and HHKB(both pro and pro2) space bars floated and NEWS ones(both 411A and 5461) sank in the liquid.

You can see HHKB pro and NEWS space bars in this pic.

Spoiler:

I can't declare its exact material but I can speculate that NEWS space bar is PBT and Realfoce and HHKB one is ABS from knowledge of keyboard community.

Following on from your useful post, I present: The Great Topre PBT Spacebar Test of 2014!

The subjects, clockwise from top we have:

• Sony BKE-9400A
• JDL (Model Unknown)
• Sony NEWS NWP-411A
• Sony NEWS NWP-5461
• Hitachi HT-4296-15X
• Sony BKE-2011
• JDL EKUJ5
• Juki DATUM FK 201
• MCRW-1000/2000 Keyboard
• Nissho KB106DE

With room temperature tap water and no salt, we can see that the only two spacebars that float are the ones from the JDL keyboards.



One teaspoon of salt and still only the JDL spacebars floating.



Four teaspoons...no change.



Eight teaspoons of salt and the water was so murky with salt that I had to adjust the focal point on the camera.


So basically it seems that Topre certainly did make PBT spacebars in the past. Even the gigantic spacebar on the MCRW-1000 keyboard is apparently made of PBT. I also did not expect the Juki Datum spacebar to be PBT as it has some serious shine happening.

Thinking that this might not be conclusive, I added a spacebar of a modern Realforce (the 104Pro) and sure enough, it floats alongside the JDL spacebars. Afterwards I went back to the dish and basically let it have it with the salt. After about 15 seconds on pour, I mixed it all in and I couldn't see the bottom at all. Some minutes later, I noticed that the MCRW-1000 and BKE-9400A spacebars started to float at one side. I am not sure what to make of this. They are both the same length though. I guess everything will float with enough salt in there?

[hasu]

Really a great collection, I even didn't know Hitachi Topre keyboard exists.

I don't think you got water of the bowl/dish saturated yet. To saturate water you need really a lot of salt, my quick google search says 37.5g/100ml at room temparature. You may need to pick up new salt at grocery store to avoid getting your wife mad

And it is a bit wierd that your JDL ones float in tap water. From my test my JDL sinks in tap water and floats in salt water. I think JDL space bars are made of ABS. Probably bubbles in stabilizer stems caused this float, they will sink if you remove the bubbles.

[002]

I don't think you got water of the bowl/dish saturated yet. To saturate water you need really a lot of salt, my quick google search says 37.5g/100ml at room temparature. You may need to pick up new salt at grocery store to avoid getting your wife mad

Ohh wow, I didn't think it would be that much. How much salt did you use? At this point I am thinking it might be a lot easier to try the acetone test. The JDL spacebars definitely float in normal water, even after I dunked them many times to remove air bubbles as you pointed out. Maybe my tap water is just saltier without any added...it wouldn't surprise me.

Just going by feel and look alone, I think the JDL space is ABS. I would say that I am pretty certain the Sony editing boards have PBT space bars if only for the fact that they actually have dye-sublimated legends on them. Likewise, the Juki also has what appears to be dye-sub printing on the front edge.

This leaves Hitachi which I was pretty sure was PBT before I started, Sony NEWS and MCRW. The Sony NEWS and Hitachi spacebars were like rocks really...There was no sign that they were ever going to float even after 8+ teaspoons and the 15 second pour. The MCRW, like the 9400A did start to raise but only at one edge...I think it is PBT though as it showed the same semi-float behaviour as the 9400A which has dye-sub printing.

Btw, here's a pic of (most of) my Topre boards which I took today while I was doing this:

[Hypersphere]

There was a Model M with Greek legends on ebay a while ago with a horribly yellowed space bar, though the other keys were all good. Wish I'd saved a picture of it, ebay's useless for preservation.

Anyway, here's another one, which is subtler but still clearly different from the other caps:

Spoiler:

Nice worn ABS spacebar you've got on your HHKB 1 there, Cookie! Striking indeed how it hasn't yellowed anything like as much as the case. Try taking it off and shooting pictures against a white sheet of paper and you might find the telltale ABS tan even so. Apparently ABS (like all commercial plastics) is a mixture of things — the S stands for styrofoam, which sounds so cheap! — and I dare say the fire retardant part of the mix was stronger for your HHKB's case. The part which protects all the rest.

Here is the reply on this issue that I got from Clickykeyboards.com:

"I'm not exactly sure about the plastic composition (ABS vs. PBT).. but definitely, there was a change in some of the Made by IBM UK keyboards because many of these 42H1292 keyboards that I have been seeing recently have had yellowed keys that look slightly different than 1391401 spacebars.

http://www.clickykeyboard.com/2014/jun14/013.jpg [www.clickykeyboard.com]

I'm not sure if it is a different plastic or if they added bromine to their 42H1292 spacebars for fire retardant issues?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retr0bright [en.wikipedia.org] "

Note the grounding cable attached to the underside of the yellowed spacebar. This was a feature of some of the Model M keyboard produced in the UK.

[Muirium]

Yikes, that's a real, thoroughly droolworthy collection you've got there 002. I'm going out on a limb here and guessing you like Topre switches! I'm still a ways off such a host of IBMs — although I'm getting there — and my Topres consist only of these NovaTouches. Both you and me alike could use an HHKB to round off the lot!

It's actually pretty hard to put a finger on which one of your Topres I'm the most jealous of. The µTRON is gorgeous, and probably the one I'd like to type on the most. But those compact sub-TKLs are intriguing too.


@Hyper: Interesting idea that yellowed IBM spacebars could still be PBT, but with a touch of the same yellowing fire retardant agent that bedevils ABS. It's a shortsighted move, but one wholly in keeping with the rules and regulations culture over here. If someone mandated that (ABS) keyboards need more of the vile bromine stuff in them, IBM/Lexmark in Greenock could well have just gone along with it needlessly, instead of kicking up a fight. We so love our red tape in Britain. It's what holds the land together!

[matt3o]

I finally got the sample spacebar and sent it to the manufacturer. By the end of next week we should be able to know costs and feasibility!

[Grond]

It's actually pretty hard to put a finger on which one of your Topres I'm the most jealous of. The µTRON is gorgeous, and probably the one I'd like to type on the most. But those compact sub-TKLs are intriguing too.

I agree, the uTron looks amazing, such minimal design and clever layout. But that pricetag! The world definitely needs more split keyboards.

[matt3o]

Good news, more good news and bad news.

good #1
The spacebar is technically feasible

good #2
The per piece cost is relatively low

bad
the MOQ is almost unreachable (5000)

I'll talk with the various parties involved and let you know if this could become a reality, but we are talking of a +20k investment. I see it hard but I'm keep trying

[macmakkara]

So its like 40 per spacebar?

[matt3o]

well depends on how many we sell. Realistically around $9-12... but we have to sell a hell lot of them

[Hypersphere]

MOQ 5000! Seems rather unrealistic. Would it be possible to get help from Massdrop to stir up more volume?

[ne0phyte]

I'm sure many people would be willing to get 2+ considering that space is the most used key and there probably won't be another chance to get a PBT Topre space bar anytime soon.

I'd definitely buy 4 (or more) as long as they fit my HHKB
But still, that MOQ is huge...

[Hypersphere]

Yes, to help out as much as I can, provided the quality is up to the Topre standard, I would buy at least 6 of the PBT spacebars (in "black" or Topre dark gray). I might even go for some additional ones in Topre white.

[matt3o]

the MOQ doesn't scare me, I don't care if we end up with 2500 unused spacebars. The bottom line is to be able to cover the whole order. If we sell 5000 the cost per cap would be very small, but as I said I hardly see it going lower than $9-12 per spacebar (and you can buy at least 2)

[Hypersphere]

Space[bar] the final frontier....

[Muirium]

Thanks for persisting with this, Matt. Obviously talks are still in progress, but right now were they talking about just one colour?

Anyone know if the light and dark Realforce spacebars are identical to the light and dark HHKBs?

[ne0phyte]

Thanks for persisting with this, Matt. Obviously talks are still in progress, but right now were they talking about just one colour?

Anyone know if the light and dark Realforce spacebars are identical to the light and dark HHKBs?

They are. I have a blank black and blank white set and use both of them on a black HHKB. My friend got a white HHKB and he uses one of my spare space bars.
You can only order one kind of space bar anyway so it can only be the same.

[Hypersphere]

Now I am confused.

1. The spacebars will all be the same size and these will fit both, the HHKB Pro 2 and the RF 87u -- Correct?

2. Will both colors be available? (Topre dark gray, aka "black"; and Topre white)?

[matt3o]

yes the spacebar is 6 unit, and it is compatible with realforce, hhkb and leopold 660c

we will have at least 2 colors (black and white to match the original colors), but it is very likely that we will also have some additional colors (pink anyone?)

[Hypersphere]

@matt3o, Thanks for the confirmation and clarification! Looking good. Black and white will do for me. Blue, maybe. No need for pink!

[macmakkara]

Oooh i want purple! I might also take some 3-6 cause i think im in love. Posted this to other thread already but still

hmm.. spacebar is different colour than others cause abs Also i noticed really small difference with EK replacement and original in color. Don't have good camera to take shot. but it can all also be inside my head.

[Khers]

I'm also in for a small bunch of spacebars! Pink sounds awesome . Thanks matt3o for looking into this!

[webwit]

Maybe check on some shops which sell Topre keyboards if they want to get in?

[002]

I'd buy 10 of these, maybe more depending on available colours

[ramnes]

Also interested, at least one, maybe more.

[brdrgz]

We could do a kickstarter for it. I don't think 20k would be a problem if you kept it open long enough and posted to all of the kb communities.

[scottc]

Sane here. One in black, maybe more, maybe a white one.

[Hypersphere]

I'm in for at least 6 and probably more given that there will be some color choices.

[matt3o]

for the colored spacebars would you prefer:

1) a pack of 3 spacebars each of a different color (but you may end up with at least one color you are not interested in)
2) a pack of 2 spacebars both of the same color

please note that dark gray and light gray come in packs of 2 minimum.