Putting Together an Order at Elite Keyboards… No, Tenso!

[Muirium]

All right, I'm fiiiiiinally on the verge of ordering an HHKB. (I've been eyeing one for two years already!) EK has them on sale, in stock, and I have someone on holiday in the US soon, who can pick it up for me. (Alas in California, so with 8% sales tax on top but oh well.) Naturally, I'm considering the One True HHKB:


http://www.elitekeyboards.com/products. ... d=pdkb400w

And I want the cute case for it!


http://www.elitekeyboards.com/products. ... d=pdkb01sd#

Yes, its overpriced. But Happy Hacking! And I will be toting this keyboard as my travel companion anyway.

Anything else I should get? How about lube? (And if so, which kind?) I could probably use some of the thick stuff on the NovaTouch's stabs, come to think of it.

Anyway, it won't be until late January when get my hands on any of this stuff. Anyone want something?

[andrewjoy]

get me one and some lub i can use on vintage blacks

[Hypersphere]

Let us know how you like your new HHKB Pro 2.

Given all our discussions about the form factor and layout, you are sure to like those. However, prepare yourself for possible disappointment with the sound and feel of the board.

As I have said many times, I prefer the sound and feel of my RF 87ub 55g over my HHKB Pro 2.

If such a board could be built, I think the ideal one for me would be a HHKB Pro 3 with plate-mounted 55g Topre switches, (or the HHKB Rev 3 layout of an IBM Model F that wcass might be helping to bring into being!).

[Muirium]

Bear in mind I took this picture on my desk some months ago:



That was my first try of an HHKB, on its way to Romania. Just as sweet as I expected! And better to me than the similar trial I had before that of a regular Realforce, thanks to 002. The HHKB seems to be the all in one ideal package for my Topre desires!

get me one and some lub i can use on vintage blacks

Sure. You pay up front, of course! (If you're interested, PM me.)

[macmakkara]

Hmmm.. im kinda interested in some caps. Got HHKB already and love it

[andrewjoy]

oh you not buying ?

I hope it works out well for you

what board is that at the bottom by the way ? i want one , the crappy bottom row on my 40% filco is starting to piss me off

[Hypersphere]

@Mu, Yes, now I recall that you have had the opportunity to try out an HHKB in person. However, was the RF a full-size and with variable weighting? There is quite a difference in sound and feel across different models of RFs. My favorite is the RF 87ub 55g. In any event, I am very happy for you that you will finally be getting a HHKB Pro 2!

[Muirium]

Yup, 55g Topre is the one wildcard (besides obvious magic ponies like Bluetooth). 002's Realforce was the ergo full-size model. I liked the variable weighting just fine, actually. And my NovaTouch is on the light side of Topre, too. I'm not averse to 45g (or even lighter) switches, but 55g will have to remain beyond my experience. As much as I like the white Realforce TKL, I'm much more of an HHKB man. Those domed Windows keys! That big frame. Nah. I'd rather go straight to 45g uniform HHKB, which I know suits me quite well anyway. Including in sound and feel.

I'm another one of these dubious sorts that 002 can't understand, who prefers the HHKB's plastic plate to the Reahlforce's metal!


@Andy: The blue capped 60% with a wing nut is my homemade lasered steel, and very shiny board from Matteo's group build last year.

http://deskthority.net/group-buys-f50/l ... ml#p133887

It's gotten me very used to the HHKB layout already. So when I borrowed a real one, I was immediately at home. I expect to get on with it just fine!

But what's this about a Filco 40%? Since when did they do anything smaller than TKL?

[chzel]

Minila? Not 40% but still...

[Muirium]

Ah, of course. That would explain it!

Nice Bluetooth. Shame about everything else…

[noobie94]

Is a KUL worth the money?

[Hypersphere]

Is a KUL worth the money?

As you probably know, you can get a Kul from several sources other than EK.

I tried two Kuls: one with mx clears and one with reds. The Kul is a very solid board with some good features, including an abundance of DIP switch settings that I found useful. However, I sold both boards, mainly because I didn't like the switches or the Cherry stabilizers. In addition, one of the boards had some minor cosmetic defects in the finish on the upper case.

However, I still wanted a Cherry mx board, mainly because I have a number of compatible keycap sets. Therefore, I bought a WASD V2 87 Barebones (no keycaps). It cost less than the Kul and I like it better; for one thing, it has Costar-type stabilizers, which give a stable and solid feel to the stabilized keys. In addition, the customer service at WASD is excellent.

[Muirium]

Well, I don't know anyone who carries KUL over here, so Noobie could have a point. I'm not sure they're worth the money, though. Speaking as another Topre / IBM snob of course!

[Hypersphere]

Well, I don't know anyone who carries KUL over here, so Noobie could have a point. I'm not sure they're worth the money, though. Speaking as another Topre / IBM snob of course!

Oops. I thought Amazon carried Kul; maybe it is only the US flavor of Amazon. I got my first Kul from EK, but I had to pay shipping and they do not accept returns. I got my second via Amazon (US) and shipping was free.

The Kul seems to me to be a good and solid Cherry mx board, and I might have kept mine if I liked Cherry switches more than I do, and if I liked Cherry stabilizers (which I dislike quite a lot).

Just now, I have almost finished putting my Granite set on my WASD board. It looks great and very preliminary typing indicates that it feels great. All the keys have a consistent sound and feel across the entire keyboard, including the stabilized keys. The combination of the Granite set and the WASD board are shaping up to be a winner!

[Muirium]

Yeah, nothing showing up on Amazon UK:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_nos ... l+keyboard

I've had Granite on my NovaTouch for a long time now, and it's right up there with Round 4 SPH as sublime, best of breed, sets. I like Granite's legends and texture better, while I prefer SPH's colours and shape. Swings and roundabouts as always. But on Topre switches, and Montereys (with MX adapters), I'm getting a lot of good use out of these caps without relying on Cherry switches!

[002]

Wow you're finally doing it!
Are you really set on EK at this stage because there's probably a cheaper way to get one -- possibly even direct from PFU's Amazon storefront.

[scottc]

I'm shocked too! I always thought you'd end up grabbing one for 100 quid out in a sheer fluke.

You could always go for Smart Imports, too. They're quite "creative" when it comes to competitive pricing.

[Muirium]

Well, I'm all ears! Being an HHKB newb, I've zero experience at actually buying one until now…

[Hypersphere]

<snip>

I've had Granite on my NovaTouch for a long time now, and it's right up there with Round 4 SPH as sublime, best of breed, sets. I like Granite's legends and texture better, while I prefer SPH's colours and shape. Swings and roundabouts as always. But on Topre switches, and Montereys (with MX adapters), I'm getting a lot of good use out of these caps without relying on Cherry switches!

Looks like I spoke too soon, at least in some respects.

Trying to type on my new WASD V2 87 with mx browns and the Granite set. My error rate is worse than it has ever been. I think this is in part due to the lightness of mx brown switches, but I've typed on them before with the Leopold PBT set, and I did much better. I have never really typed on sphericals before, other than just briefly testing out a Selectric typewriter and a beam spring keyboard. The sphericals seem to provide too many edges to hit accidentally. This is unfortunate, because I really like the look and sound of them on this board. In addition, the caps fit perfectly on the stems -- snug, but not overly tight. I am pleasantly surprised by how much I like the appearance -- I generally prefer the mods to be either black or a warmer color like "pebble" rather than a cold gray, but the overall design is so good that the general effect is quite positive. I am also glad that I chose symbols rather than text for the mods.

Another thing for my benefit: Could someone please point me to a chart of universal keyboard symbols? I got the symbol mods with my set and I have some problems. First, there seems to be no ^ symbols for Control keys, and so I am using keys that have a sort of sunburst on them for Control. Second, I don't know the proper symbols for Insert, Print Screen, Scroll Lock, and Pause/Break (although I have chosen some that make sense to me). Third, (very naive question!) how can I determine the proper orientation of the keycaps? In the Granite set, are the caps all the same profile and the same symmetry right side up and upside down?

EDIT: Because I had better luck previously with another keycap set on an mx brown board, I might transfer the Granite set to my Novatouch and try other sets on the WASD board.

[noobie94]

Off topic but..

Hypersphere? How long have you been typing with the MX Brown now? What I have noticed with browns is that they feel worse the longer I use them (like after 2 weeks and longer) and I also get higher error rate.

[Muirium]

MX brown is my demon switch. Feels like dirty reds to me, and doesn't put up a noble fight like clears. Somewhat surprised you went back to them, Hyper. I doubt they suit you much either.

As for Granite serving suggestions, I made a whole thread at the time:



Alternatively, there's the original GB's graphics, made by Matteo himself:



The chevron Control symbols are an Apple oddity, and were only included in Granite's first run, at my personal insistence! Matteo cancelled them several times, I remember well. But I persevered. They will never be seen again…



Likely the only way to get hold of those two keys is in trades. I recall seeing a few up for grabs, as anyone who bought the Apple kit just for its text mods will have no use for them.

[Hypersphere]

Off topic but..

Hypersphere? How long have you been typing with the MX Brown now? What I have noticed with browns is that they feel worse the longer I use them (like after 2 weeks and longer) and I also get higher error rate.

Because I've determined that Cherry mx switches of any kind are my least favorite type of switch, I have typed on browns only intermittently. After trying just about all mx, including vintage black, red, blue, green, clear, and brown, I finally decided that of all these, I prefer browns. They are too light for my taste, but because the force-displacement curve of all Cherry mx switches increases after the actuation point and I like to bottom out on every key stroke, all the others (except blues and reds) feel too heavy. I like a tactile switch, but the problem with Cherry's solution to this is that tactility is achieved rather artificially by grafting a bump onto the switch stem. At times, I thought I might like reds, because of all the Cherry switches, the linears are the purest form of the switch, with no artificial grafted bump; this leaves blacks and reds, but blacks are a bit too heavy. Oddly enough, I rather liked greens, but they are essentially a heavier blue, and after a while I found the high-pitched plasticky click of blues and greens annoying.

Maybe I will adapt to the browns and the spherical Granite set.

I really do like the look of the Granite set, and overall I like the WASD keyboard as much or better than any Cherry mx board I have tried (which include quite a few!).

[scottc]

I agree with you for the most part, Hyper. I find linear MX the most tolerable of the bunch. Your description of MX's tactility is spot-on - I have the same experience. My favourite MX switch is 62g MX black. I recently did a spring swap on my main work board (a Cherry G80-1800) from stock MX black springs to 62g and I'm really impressed with the result. I detest MX brown, though. They're probably the worst switch that I've tried, in my opinion.

[Muirium]

As for a source for those symbols, here they are in action on OS X:

Screen Shot 2014-12-11 at 10.56.34 pm.png (60.66 KiB) Viewed 13146 times

Pull down any menu and you'll typically see a variety of mods. They're actually all in Unicode, which you can explore on your Mac by opening the character viewer and selecting "technical symbols":

Screen Shot 2014-12-11 at 10.55.07 pm.png (89.33 KiB) Viewed 13146 times

Oddly enough, American Macs tend to show few if any of them on the keyboard. Yet they're still all over the display! Apple's ISO keyboards, meanwhile, aren't afraid to use icon mods aplenty:



Matteo included several more symbols than are required for OS X. The asterisk, diamond and so forth are for other platforms where they may be appropriate. We just wound up putting our unusual ones (Command and chevron Control) into the Apple kit.

[Hypersphere]

@Muirium: You can always be counted on to come up with the perfect illustration for almost any situation! Thanks for the layouts with the various symbols. It appears I had them all correct except for Print Screen and Scroll Lock, which I had not only reversed, but rotated 90 degrees!

Thanks for your explanation of what happened to the chevron Control symbol. I was about to check to see if Massdrop had messed up my order; apparently not.

Regarding mx switches, I go back and forth. It seems that the feel of their switches can vary quite a lot depending on the board and the keycap set. As I recall, when I tested browns previously, they did not feel quite so light and had a bit more discernible tactility. I almost opted for reds, because within the Cherry realm, the purest of their switches are the linear ones, and blacks are just a tad too heavy. I like to bottom out, and clears just put up too much of a struggle. Greens and blues have an annoying high-pitched plasticky click.

I haven't really adjusted to this new WASD board yet, but one thing I would change if I were ordering one again is that for a few they will install different switches in specified locations. I think I would take them up on this and have a heavier switch for the spacebar.

While I really like some of the keycap sets for mx switches -- especially the Granite set -- I am glad I have options for keyboards other than Cherry mx. It will be nice to get back to my favorites: the HHKB Pro 2, RF 87ub 55g, and IBM XT. And speaking of IBM, I am really looking forward to finding the time and other resources to refurb my other Model F boards, including the F122, F107, and especially the F62.

EDIT: My Granite set would be just about perfect if there had been an option (maybe there was and I missed it) for a Backslash key to replace the Backspace key. There was a Backspace key to replace the Backslash key. Luckily, I also opted for some extra blanks, and I have a gray blank that now substitutes for the former Backspace (which is now my Backslash key).

[iAmAhab]

Could be possible to save some money with this:
http://www.tenso.com/en/landing/rakuten ... 0.html?top

I used Tenso when I bought my HHKB from amazon.jp, was a painfree experience all in all.

[Muirium]

Yeah, they're definitely an option. The thing I worry about, going mail order to Britain though, is something like this:

http://deskthority.net/post186348.html#p186348

Only with more ouch!

I've seen handling fees like you people wouldn't believe… Attack slips on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched c-notes glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate. All those… imports… will be lost in time, like taxes… in… rain.

[Hypersphere]

I agree with you for the most part, Hyper. I find linear MX the most tolerable of the bunch. Your description of MX's tactility is spot-on - I have the same experience. My favourite MX switch is 62g MX black. I recently did a spring swap on my main work board (a Cherry G80-1800) from stock MX black springs to 62g and I'm really impressed with the result. I detest MX brown, though. They're probably the worst switch that I've tried, in my opinion.

During my first round of assessing Cherry mx switches and the keyboards that use them, I came to the same conclusion -- that browns were the worst of all ("dirty reds" and all that). Then, on a more recent round, I changed my mind and ended up opting for browns with my most recent acquisition. From time to time, however, I have thought that if I am going use Cherry mx switches at all, I really ought to go with a linear switch. However, I found stock blacks too heavy and reds too light (same as browns, but browns have a bit of a brake with the grafted-on bump).

I've seen a number of posts about doing a spring swap to generate 62g blacks. However, aren't stock blacks 60g? So, you want them heavier, but by only 2g?

I don't mind a fairly heavy actuation force (I like 55g Topre, and IBM Model F (60-65g) and Model M (65-70g), but I like there to be a marked decrease in force after actuation. One problem with all Cherry mx switches is that the force continues to increase after actuation. In contrast, with Topre and IBM buckling spring (both membrane and capacitive) there is a marked decrease in force accompanied by the collapse of the rubber dome (Topre) or buckling of the spring (IBM).

[scottc]

I've seen a number of posts about doing a spring swap to generate 62g blacks. However, aren't stock blacks 60g? So, you want them heavier, but by only 2g?

This is a common misconception due to the ambiguous terms used when referring to springs. The Cherry ratings refer to the required force to actuate the switch, whereas the ratings of custom springs usually refer to the force required to completely bottom out. It's counter-intuitive, I know. 62g springs are somewhere between MX black and MX red, which is the sweet spot, in my opinion. I also found MX reds too light for everyday typing.

While I much prefer buckling spring, beam spring, Topre or Monterey Blues, I do find 62g MX blacks tolerable and even quite pleasant to use at work, where I need a more "SFW" board.

[Hypersphere]

I've seen a number of posts about doing a spring swap to generate 62g blacks. However, aren't stock blacks 60g? So, you want them heavier, but by only 2g?

This is a common misconception due to the ambiguous terms used when referring to springs. The Cherry ratings refer to the required force to actuate the switch, whereas the ratings of custom springs usually refer to the force required to completely bottom out. It's counter-intuitive, I know. 62g springs are somewhere between MX black and MX red, which is the sweet spot, in my opinion. I also found MX reds too light for everyday typing.

While I much prefer buckling spring, beam spring, Topre or Monterey Blues, I do find 62g MX blacks tolerable and even quite pleasant to use at work, where I need a more "SFW" board.

Thanks for the explanation! Now it makes sense! Yes, I should think that the sweet spot would be somewhere between mx black and mx red.

If I were ever to do such a mod, I think it might be on a DIY switchless board with a bag of switches that I could modify without desoldering.

Where do you get the custom springs?