The Oracle Answers

[chzel]

That is just a Dremel slip...

[Muirium]

Ugh, what a mess. A prop from a keyboard horror movie!

[kbdfr]

Perhaps someone tried to cut down the caps to make them flat and blank. Unfortunately they were double-shot

[noobie94]

Best place to get ANSI layout keyboards in Europe? Amazon not an option because I do not have credit card. Ebay?

[Halvar]

"Double shot legends will never fade!"

Well almost ...

[Halvar]

Best place to get ANSI layout keyboards in Europe? Amazon not an option because I do not have credit card. Ebay?

Most Dutch people seem to be using ANSI. Maybe a nice trip to Amsterdam?

[Muirium]

Or our very own classifieds. You'll get a better deal if you ask right!

Those doubleshots were definitely melted. You can see how the darker plastic flowed away while molten. Someone must have attacked it with a blowtorch or something!

[urbancamo]

Now this is an uber-keyboard! Can you play 'name that terminal'?

knr-keyboard.PNG (312.58 KiB) Viewed 5947 times

This is from a Bell Labs report on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoVQTPbD6UY

[guk]

Custom job or actually manufactured that way? http://www.ebay.de/itm/201280889626 (Last two pictures)

[vsev]

Hi,
What do you think this keyboard could be ?

télé_3.jpeg (159.61 KiB) Viewed 5816 times

Edit found one on ebay
http://www.ebay.fr/itm/MODICON-TELEMECA ... 3cdf7d99af

but question is what switches do you think it has !

[ramnes]

Cherry MX for sure.

[Muirium]

The Cherry guys know that one, definitely. Even I can recognise it, just not the name. Something tells me it starts with G!

[vsev]

I might get this one for very cheaper price than the bay auction

[SL89]

Here is a question for the oracle:

Do SP, GMK or Taihao for that matter still make triple shots?

[ramnes]

I might get this one for very cheaper price than the bay auction

This one ? http://www.leboncoin.fr/equipements_ind ... tm?ca=12_s

[Mal-2]

I am having a rather frustrating problem, looking to get a mechanical keyboard. First is that Tipros seem to be common in Europe but rare in the U.S., or I'd have just gone down that path most likely (I'd want it in ANSI, not ISO, and particularly not with the extra key between left shift and "your" Z). But what's bothering me more now is that it seems ALL mechanical keyboards out there other than Tipro are using radiused or whatever you call them keys that are different on each row. I haven't found a single one that doesn't. This is a disaster for me because I would need to replace thirty keys — I use the Dvorak layout exclusively (unless I'm forced to use QWERTY on someone else's machine) and I do move the keys. Due to the fact that Dvorak is heavily pinky-dependent, and I have problems with the reach because of it (but love all the other benefits of the layout), I do not type "by the book", and have to look down to re-center my hands fairly frequently. When I do, it's pretty important that the keys NOT say ASDFGHJKL; but instead AOEUIDHTNS. I can't do this with keys that are built specifically to be placed in particular rows.

I don't have this problem with cheap rubber domes. Occasionally I get a weird one where they had the "brilliant" idea of rotating the index finger home key mounts or something, but by and large, I do not have difficulty pulling key caps and moving them around on cheap keyboards.

In particular, I'd like to get a 75% board with dedicated function keys but NO dedicated cursor pad. I accept that moving keys will make the Fn legends wrong. I'll just have to put stickers or ink on the front of the keys unless there is a REAL solution available: a keyboard with a native Dvorak cap set. I am not willing to tolerate stickers on the surfaces I actually touch.

I like tactile. They don't have to be clicky, but it's fine if they are, so MX blues and browns are both agreeable. Reds are too soft, and the only board I'd take with blacks would be the Tipro, because it has so much else going for it. Also I would strongly prefer a white or light gray keyboard over a black one, another option that exists but seems to be getting shoved further and further out of the mainstream. This does not apply to Tipro, because they have keys designed to be re-legended.

A further complication is that I can't even consider the older Tipro boards because they can only be programmed in their "native" port form and not through a converter, and the PS/2 model requires 32-bit Windows which I do not have and never will have again on a machine with a PS/2 port. Basically I am restricted to USB Tipros only.

What are my options here?

[Muirium]

You're talking about row profiles? Those are pretty common, but not entirely ubiquitous. Not all keyboards use row sculpted caps:



The best curved backplane boards out there are IBM. I've swapped around caps to make a Colemak board with just as much ease as you've found on non-mechs. Buckling spring is very tactile, but also very loud! If you're after something different, then there are some flat MX boards out there like Tipro and Access-IS. Try searching for "POS" (point of sale) keyboards, as that's what most of them are designed for.

Or get a set of DSA caps:



Aftermarket caps are quite expensive. But they'll work on anything.

[Mal-2]

You're talking about row profiles? Those are pretty common, but not entirely ubiquitous. Not all keyboards use row sculpted caps:

The best curved backplane boards out there are IBM. I've swapped around caps to make a Colemak board with just as much ease as you've found on non-mechs. Buckling spring is very tactile, but also very loud! If you're after something different, then there are some flat MX boards out there like Tipro and Access-IS. Try searching for "POS" (point of sale) keyboards, as that's what most of them are designed for.

Or get a set of DSA caps:

Aftermarket caps are quite expensive. But they'll work on anything.

Contoured keys are what I'm complaining about.

I know aftermarket keys exist, but if they double the cost of an already expensive keyboard, then it's a non-starter for me. Buckling spring seems unworkable as well, because of the lack of any sort of rollover (and I do expect to do some gaming on it). This is unfortunate, because in my experience, curved backplanes are wonderful.

I have been searching for POS keyboards. Unfortunately, most of them seem to have the normal typing section on the TOP, which is exactly the opposite of what I want. Whether it's "correct" or not, my hands rest fairly heavily on the pad. I don't hover. I'd be mashing a whole palmful (or two) of keys on most POS boards. I also find Cherry's "let's clip another ½U off the left and stick `~ in the bottom row" design choice to be exceptionally annoying. I'm not at all worried about pulling the left margin in within a millimeter of its life. It's the right margin that is the big deal most of the time.

For whatever reason, Tipro boards seem to be all over the UK eBay site, but are quite rare here. All I can find are the grid kind, and most of those are 8x8 or smaller. Also I'm restricted to USB Tipros because I only have one machine with a PS/2 port, and it has only 64-bit Windows 7 installed. (I'm not going to install a whole OS on a separate partition just to run one piece of software. If software doesn't run on 64-bit Windows, then I either replace it or live without it.)

[Muirium]

Very true. I found the old PS/2 Tipro I had (with that Win32 restriction you describe) quite unusable. Tipro's software is really quite bad to use, even when you do dig out another machine to run it on. Access-IS is no better!

I'd suggest a modern USB Tipro. Kbdfr is the most knowledgable about them around here. And if you can find one in the UK, I can bring it on over in a few months when I'm in southern California myself!

[vsev]

I might get this one for very cheaper price than the bay auction

This one ? http://www.leboncoin.fr/equipements_ind ... tm?ca=12_s

NO !
I mean really very very cheaper (thinking about less than 80)

[Mal-2]

Very true. I found the old PS/2 Tipro I had (with that Win32 restriction you describe) quite unusable. Tipro's software is really quite bad to use, even when you do dig out another machine to run it on. Access-IS is no better!

I'd suggest a modern USB Tipro. Kbdfr is the most knowledgable about them around here. And if you can find one in the UK, I can bring it on over in a few months when I'm in southern California myself!

I ultimately went for a much more common and much less expensive Cherry G86-61400. It has the credit card reader on it, though I don't see that I have any use for such a thing unless it could be used as a way to log into the system. The programming ability is somewhat limited (and there is no Fn layer), but I think it will do for the purpose.

Does anyone happen to know what switches these use, or if they're even mechanical at all? I got it with the intent that it would let me test all manner of exotic layouts, and if I don't like it, I figure I can move it along. I sure hope it isn't "dead octopus" MY switches...

[Daniel Beardsmore]

"Cherry G86 series appears to be Cherry's high end rubber dome keyboard series intended for high reliability operations such as POS keyboards. These keyboards are spill-proof.

Cherry refer to these keyboards as Advanced Technology Keyboard or ATK."

(The entire contents of [wiki]Cherry G86 series[/wiki])

[Mal-2]

"Cherry G86 series appears to be Cherry's high end rubber dome keyboard series intended for high reliability operations such as POS keyboards. These keyboards are spill-proof.

Cherry refer to these keyboards as Advanced Technology Keyboard or ATK."

(The entire contents of [wiki]Cherry G86 series[/wiki])

Well then, I may be able to help flesh out the Wiki in a few days to a couple weeks. I'm just curious how the keys are interchangeable. I mean, they are interchangeable on most cheap rubber dome and scissor keyboards, but are they interchangeable with anything other than G86 keyboards? Will I be able to get actual printed keycaps from somewhere to make this look truly polished instead of looking like the POS terminal keyboard it is, or is this destined to be consigned to "alternate layout screwaround" duty? I know POS key kits are available for grocery stores, banks, and other such outfits that are fairly consistent in their needs, but they're all made by Cherry as far as I can tell, and I doubt they'd have any interest in producing a custom set for me.

We'll see, I guess.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

What spec are you reading, and what does it actually say? Is this direct from Cherry? I've seen no end of absurd mistakes on product specs.

[Mal-2]

Well then, I may be able to help flesh out the Wiki in a few days to a couple weeks. I'm just curious how the keys are interchangeable. I mean, they are interchangeable on most cheap rubber dome and scissor keyboards, but are they interchangeable with anything other than G86 keyboards? Will I be able to get actual printed keycaps from somewhere to make this look truly polished instead of looking like the POS terminal keyboard it is, or is this destined to be consigned to "alternate layout screwaround" duty? I know POS key kits are available for grocery stores, banks, and other such outfits that are fairly consistent in their needs, but they're all made by Cherry as far as I can tell, and I doubt they'd have any interest in producing a custom set for me.

I still don't have it in my hands, but I have at least confirmed that SP does produce keys for the G86 mount — and that it is different from any other. I will of course have to play with it quite a while to ensure I like the layout before committing to getting dye-sub keys, but here's what I currently have come to.

Blue keys are Ctrl+[marked key], as one of the major shortcomings of Dvorak is placing the Control keys in awkward places. One of the worst offenders is that Ctrl-V (paste) is right next to Ctrl-W (close), which has cost me a great deal of work on multiple occasions. If it weren't for this shortcut row, I'd probably turn to disabling Ctrl-W in the keyboard layout. (I still might.)

Brown keys all map to Ctrl+Alt+Shift+[a number key from 1 to 0]. In the Keyboard layout Editor, I then have these mapped to dead keys that will modify the next key pressed. The way the accents work should be pretty straightforward. The first brown key is superscript and currency -- it will produce superscripted versions of all letters, some punctuation, and the numbers 1 to 3. The numbers 4 to 0 have no such Unicode points, so they produce currency symbols instead (£, €, ¥, ¢, and a couple others). The one with the macron and circle produces macron-accented vowels, while the number keys produce various kinds of bullets, and it also produces ©℗®™ since it seemed logical to map these to the circle key. The notes produce various musical symbols ♯♮♭ etc., and square bullets. ∂ produces mathematical symbols and Greek characters. ♠▲ produces the card suits, arrows, and block characters. The last one marked Å produces all the characters that don't fit into one of the above classifications but are still necessary: åçñðøþʒŁə among others. Unfortunately this is not self-contained within the keyboard but has to be enabled through the Keyboard Layout Creator. The keyboard doesn't even support an Fn layer, let alone ten alternate layers. This does mean AltGr is enabled in the layout, but I concealed it by having both Alt keys map to Left Alt.

Dark blue represents a key that will have the wrong legend unless I sticker/paint over it. Tab will say "CapsLock", and Numpad - will say "Enter".

The dark keys are pre-printed. The slightly lighter gray are the relegendables, although the majority of those are also pre-printed under their relegendable caps. The "( )" key generates the () pair and places the cursor between them, useful in Excel.

The printed keys and the relegendables have different profiles, a fact that I am actually using to advantage. It should be enough to let me find the arrow cluster by touch, to avoid pressing CapsLock or the alternate space button instead of Ctrl, and to distinguish non-breaking space from the space bar or Alt. Moving CapsLock into the corner allowed me to place `~ just below where Cherry booted it from the layout (by default they have it where I have Left Alt), and places Tab (a key I use a whole lot more than CapsLock) in a less "stretchy" position. There is also an extra Tab key by the number keypad, since I evicted the arrow pad from this location.



Note for BillDee from the Programmer's Keyboard thread — I paid $40 for this keyboard second-hand. If you were to get two of them, and rotate one and place it on the left, you might well be able to get all the functions you wanted for less than $100. You'll run out of relegendable keys though, so you'll probably have to paint them yourself or order custom keys from SP. (I haven't found a source of spare relegendable keys other than Cherry itself.) I've seen the seven-row version (missing the top row) going for $20!

[idollar]

Dear Oracle,

With my models m and SSK I can type CTR-ALT-UP and CTR-ALT-DOWN. This combination is normally used to change virtual desktop in X environments. But the model m 122 does not produce any output.
Dear Oracle, I wonder if you could tell me if the gods of the Olympus set the matrix make the Unix users suffer ...

[Muirium]

Model Ms are all technically 2KRO. (Horror!) But some rollovers are better than others. IBM did a decent job with the regular PS/2 Model Ms; including the SSK, which is the only kind of non-terminal Model M I have. But my 122 key terminal Model M is just as badly behaved as yours. The mods and arrow keys mask so easily. Gah.

Punishment from bitter, forgotten gods. But not for using UNIX. For using 122 key Model Ms!

[fohat]

For using 122 key Model Ms!

I have never understood why anybody would use a 122-key Model M for anything except a parts donor.

My 122-key Model Fs are my pride and joy, but only because that is the only realistic way to get a full-size near-ANSI layout in Model F.

[Muirium]

Yup. And the AT is my equivalent, as a Tenkeyless guy…

[fohat]

Wow! That is magnificent!

The dedicated arrow keys are wonderful.

I have been wondering how to set up my AT when I do the ANSI mod on it (including spacebar and Alt keys) but you have showed me the way.

I still need Escape in its proper place at the top left of the numpad, and numpad Enter is one of the most important keys on the whole board to me, also Left F9 will become F11, and F10 will be Windows, but Wow! just Wow!

Thank you.