Topre Realforce 55g - here at last! A proxy adventure.

[XMIT]

(no photos yet - check the photos board later - I just hope that I actually got what I ordered and that it is intact...)

I've been trying to get my hands on a 55g Realforce for some time now. After missing a couple here and not getting any bites on some WTB posts I just went and bought one.

I got set up with Tenso as a proxy as I wanted a black 87u 55g and EliteKeyboards was out of stock. Well, I eventually changed my mind and decided to go with white, right around the time EliteKeyboards reported positive inventory. Ah well. This was just as much about pipe-cleaning the Tenso buying process as getting a new keyboard.

So, on Feb 24, after much use of Google Translate, I bought this:
http://www.amazon.co.jp/gp/product/B00MV7TMNQ

Apparently I did not use enough Google Translate as I got the shipping address wrong. Ruh-roh! A check with Tenso and an e-mail to Amazon.co.jp customer service fixed this.

When the keyboard finally did arrive at Tenso's warehouse two days later, I was informed that I needed to complete verification. I scanned and submitted copies of my driver license and passport. This seemed to placate them.

On Feb 27, I finally got an EMS tracking number. It was delivered this morning, now sitting on my office desk waiting for me.

I made sure to pay with two different credit cards, an AmEx and a Visa, to compare the foreign transaction fees.

Lessons learned:
- Topre keyboards really are that much cheaper in Japan.
- I saved 4.31 USD doing it my way!
- The package weight was 2020 grams.
- Start the Tenso verification process ASAP to avoid further delays.
- Tenso customer service is quite good.
- I can save a little money but it takes a little longer even with EMS.
- EMS tracking does not update as often as I would like.
- Signature is required on delivery even though this is not noted anywhere.
- Foreign transaction fees are a bummer. Having to pay them twice is the worst.
- Credit card companies make it intentionally difficult to figure out what the foreign transaction fees are.
- American Express's fees are ridiculous, Visa was reasonable.
- Tenso does not offer a payment proxy service. Most sites will accept a foreign billing address, but for those that do not (like diatec.co.jp), e-mail them to work something out.
- Shipping via slow boat would save a few dollars but I am too impatient for this.

In short: Tenso works as a proxy but would be best used for unusual, hard to find or out of stock items! EliteKeyboards is a surprisingly good proxy in their own right.

Cost comparison:
166.45 USD (19816 JPY) for keyboard alone
4.49 USD American Express foreign transaction fee
48.90 USD shipping and handling (4700 JPY shipping fee via EMS, 1150 JPY handling fee)
1.46 USD Visa (Chase) foreign transaction fee
221.30 USD total

Compared with EliteKeyboards:
215.00 USD for keyboard alone
10.61 USD for shipping to Central Texas
225.61 USD total

Thanks to Mu for suggesting using Tenso in the first place.

[Muirium]

Yeah, they're pretty good. Especially for those of us who live beyond EK's home turf. You lucky buggers have a decent (if pricey) local importer *and* customs that are reasonably sane! (England has a Topre importer too, but they carry no HHKBs and their Realforce prices are absolutely crazy.) I might try my luck shipping something directly from Japan next time, but customs are always the problem here. They tax 20% plus handling on anything over £15, and include the value of EMS shipping. I'd have to pull the old Jedi mind trick on them. But you never read that here…

I haven't tried a 55g Realforce, but everyone seems to love them. Well, almost everyone!

[XMIT]

Feeling of oneness with cup rubber indeed! It is a little stiffer than Cherry MX Clears which I find surprising. I can see how some might find this tiring to type on! I guess I'll just have to try 45s at some point. Though, if the domes in those are the same as the domes in the NovaTouch TKL, those are too light for my tastes. I guess I just need a 50g dome somehow.

Anyway, unboxing photos are here:
https://plus.google.com/photos/10439222 ... 3903882097

I'll post a full review after I get to play with the keyboard for a little while.

This is some of the first sun we've had in almost two weeks here but today we have a cloudless sky and strong sunlight in Central Texas.

[xrayos]

Thank you for document the tenso experience. I was just about to order from them also. I'm surprised the shipping is so much more. I thought it would've be total $40 including tenso handling charges.


I have an all black 55g coming and would've preferred to have white keycaps. Now to find a cheaper set than the one widebasket is selling

[Muirium]

EMS is the fastest/most expensive shipping option. It can cost less than that if you choose. And unlike EK for you guys: this is international, right across the Pacific. EK's shipping to us in Europe is more expensive than Tenso's shipping to us from Japan!


My HHKB came via America thanks to, uh, certain other reasons…

Anyway, EK hikes up the pricing on accessories more than they do keyboards. I got a spare set of HHKB caps and a carry case in my order for about half their EK price.

[Zensuji.]

Yeah, they're pretty good. Especially for those of us who live beyond EK's home turf. You lucky buggers have a decent (if pricey) local importer *and* customs that are reasonably sane! (England has a Topre importer too, but they carry no HHKBs and their Realforce prices are absolutely crazy.) I might try my luck shipping something directly from Japan next time, but customs are always the problem here. They tax 20% plus handling on anything over £15, and include the value of EMS shipping. I'd have to pull the old Jedi mind trick on them. But you never read that here…

I haven't tried a 55g Realforce, but everyone seems to love them. Well, almost everyone!

I actually managed to get my FEd-EX handlng fee scraped two weeks ago. I nearly fell off my chair when I saw the email I sent them worked. It worked because its actually against the law. But they are still allowed to ask for it. Still didnt think I'd get it taken off the bill though

[Zensuji.]

Feeling of oneness with cup rubber indeed! It is a little stiffer than Cherry MX Clears which I find surprising. I can see how some might find this tiring to type on! I guess I'll just have to try 45s at some point. Though, if the domes in those are the same as the domes in the NovaTouch TKL, those are too light for my tastes. I guess I just need a 50g dome somehow.

Anyway, unboxing photos are here:
https://plus.google.com/photos/10439222 ... 3903882097

I'll post a full review after I get to play with the keyboard for a little while.

This is some of the first sun we've had in almost two weeks here but today we have a cloudless sky and strong sunlight in Central Texas.

The FC660c might be what you're after. Its a heavy "45g". Unlike the realforce and nova which are on the lighter side. I've settled on the 45g now. 55g just got too much.

[zts]

Feeling of oneness with cup rubber indeed! It is a little stiffer than Cherry MX Clears which I find surprising. I can see how some might find this tiring to type on! I guess I'll just have to try 45s at some point. Though, if the domes in those are the same as the domes in the NovaTouch TKL, those are too light for my tastes. I guess I just need a 50g dome somehow.

Anyway, unboxing photos are here:
https://plus.google.com/photos/10439222 ... 3903882097

I'll post a full review after I get to play with the keyboard for a little while.

This is some of the first sun we've had in almost two weeks here but today we have a cloudless sky and strong sunlight in Central Texas.

The FC660c might be what you're after. Its a heavy "45g". Unlike the realforce and nova which are on the lighter side. I've settled on the 45g now. 55g just got too much.

I think the stated *+/- 15g* is probably the key in how the end user will experience a particular board or production batch. I take as my initial point of reference (wrong or right) for 55g RF TKL white 55g and then the rest of Topre boards feel like:

- RF TKL white & anniversary 55g -- feels like 55
- FC660C grey 45g -- feels like 50 to 55
- FC660C white 45g -- feels like 45
- HHKB Pro 2 Type-S white 45g -- feels like 45 to 50
- HiPro all grey 45g -- feels like 45
- HiPro white 45g -- feels like 35 to 40
- Novatouch 45g -- feels like 35 to 40

[Muirium]

Feel is affected quite a bit by caps, remember. The NovaTouch can be the lightest Topre you ever felt if you put some tall caps on it. I see the HiPro is already in similar territory on your list!

Measuring the switches themselves isn't exactly difficult: coins and a scale will do the trick. I found my NovaTouch to be nice and uniform 45g as promised.

[SL89]

Mu, are there 'stronger' springs that can be added to a topre. like 80g or 100g?

[XMIT]

I'm just in shock that the keyboard feels heavier than both MX Clears and buckling springs (Model M). Part of it, I think, is that more work is required. The Topre 55g seems to have a lower (less force), but longer (more key travel), peak, requiring more actual work per key press. I recall some marketing material saying that the 55g weight is "for the deliberate typist" and they mean it!

Now, it is a very nice keyboard indeed in its own way, and the key heights are I imagine pretty close to Cherry profile as opposed to OEM profile on my MX Clear boards. I wonder if I should spend another small fortune to try the 45g board.

There are little things too - integrated num pad, option to use the lower left key as Caps Lock with an indicator, really nice cable routing, extremely crisp dye sublimated legends. It is just a nicely built piece of equipment. I like the white more than I thought I would.

Now I just hope I can get one of matt3o's PBT spacebars for this thing.

[Muirium]

You mean two. Or three. His GB needs it!

Realforces are quality boards, all round. If only more boards had stock caps as fine as that! Besides the HiPro (another Realforce of course) the only modern board out there with better caps is the HHKB, and it's very very close. I like the HHKB legend designs better. Look at the Return key on the Realforce to see what I mean, that cap here is pure text legend, no arrow; it's better to choose one rather than both! But HHKB and Realforce caps are otherwise the same. Same mount, same profile, they're almost interchangeable: besides the HHKB's customised layout of course.

Something you could definitely do (as Zensuji just did) is sell your 55g and go for a 45g. They're both in high demand; although probably with more of a price hit in America because of EK being local. The expensive way is the nice way, as usual: have them both for a while and pick! Not that I could afford any of that myself. I took an educated punt and was pleased with what I got. Helps that there is no 55g HHKB to consider in the first place!

Stick with your 55g for a while and see if it grows on you. You should know fairly soon, once you've given it a fair chance. A lot of people love them the most of all boards.


@SL89:

Topres are all about the domes. The springs inside are lightweight and cone shaped, not at all like you'll find in MX. And they're all identical across every Topre switch, as they exist only for the capsense to work. I've left a spring out the NovaTouch to verify this: the key felt the same to me, but was invisible to the host!

The way people mod Topres is by swapping in another sheet of domes. But Topre doesn't sell them as a spare part, so you have to open up a second Realforce! The cost of Topre mods is just too excruciating to even think about over here! Well, Matteo pulled it off by importing a much sought after Anniversary Realforce (with kinda sorta Space Cadet caps) as his donor and selling it on as a frankenboard at a still pretty reasonable price. If CM ever makes a 55g NovaTouch, expect people to jump on those for the domes instead. They're quite easy to work with, just a nightmare to source.

I guess alternate springs are theoretically possible. The capsense pads aren't that fussy about what they pick up. I've even used my bare fingers on a naked PCB while testing the LED mod my brother and I did. Metal just shows up better than skin! Although, springs aren't tactile the way domes are, so if you did put in a heavier spring, the switch still wouldn't feel the same as with a heavier dome. It'd have more weight, but less tactility.

[zts]

Feel is affected quite a bit by caps, remember. The NovaTouch can be the lightest Topre you ever felt if you put some tall caps on it. I see the HiPro is already in similar territory on your list!

Measuring the switches themselves isn't exactly difficult: coins and a scale will do the trick. I found my NovaTouch to be nice and uniform 45g as promised.

Yes -- NovaTouch has entirely different (better) typing feel when its cheapo keycaps are replaced with PBT caps. It's almost Topre in terms of typing feel, but the auditory is still off by quite a bit. I tried some O-rings, but that kills Topre travel too much. The best results I'm getting is with soft landing pads. Just got some much better quality PBTs so will definitively try. The real downside of NovaTouch (except for well stocked keyboard enthusiasts) is that when you count the cost of NovaTouch + upgrades, you can actually buy a brand new RF TKL . BTW, although lighter than my preferred 55g, I absolutely love HiPro ... just wish Topre starts considering a TKL version.

[SL89]

So what is the heaviest weighted capsheet then. the 55g?

[XMIT]

Sounds like there might be a HiPro in my future, then. 25970 JPY is only about 215 USD at today's rates:

http://www.amazon.co.jp/dp/B00DONW9D6/

On the slow boat it might be under 250 USD. That seems worth the wait.

[XMIT]

I'm very familiar with the Novatouch TKL. I had one, used it as my main at home keyboard for a few months, was frustrated with it and returned it. I replaced the stock ABS keycaps with the thick doubleshot PBT OEM profile key caps on my Cherry MX boards. It did wonders for the sound but did not change key weight. On that keyboard I was constantly making mistakes because the key action was so light. I would accidentally press keys all the time.

I'm in front of a keyboard almost all day every day so even a tiny improvement will pay off in the long run.

[zts]

So what is the heaviest weighted capsheet then. the 55g?

Maybe some OEM, but I'm not aware of anything over 55g. I think Topre is staying in 35-55g range for some time now. I think some time ago there were some in range of 20-35g, but that's the opposite of what you want.

[Muirium]

OEM? If only. Topre's domes are their secret sauce. Capsense isn't hard to do. Noppoo's Topre clones work well enough but the feel's all wrong thanks to… the domes. Topre's not keeping anyone in the dark by refusing to sell them as bare components, though. I'm sure Noppoo's torn apart a Realforce or two in its labs, and hasn't finished yet!

Topre domes and HiPro caps: easy money that Topre's leaving on the table. Haven't they seen how mod happy we are? Knowing them: probably not!

I think there's just three dome weights for sure, but supposedly a fourth depending who you read. From the wiki:

There is some debate about whether or not Topre’s diagram representing the variable force weight distribution is correct. Community measurements have indicated that modern variable force Realforce keyboards actually have three distinct weight levels of 45 grams, 40 grams and 35 grams (excluding the ‘Esc’ and, on full size keyboards, 'Num Lock' keys which are weighted at 55 grams). It has been noted that earlier Realforce keyboards such as the 86U have only two distinct force levels and that the lightest weight on the 86U is actually 30 grams, not 35 grams. The original Realforce 106 also had 45 grams and 30 grams weighting as mentioned in Hyakkei PC (パソコン百景) monthly Vol.27, dated February, 2003[2]. It’s possible that Topre’s suggested weight distribution diagram was simply not updated when they updated the Realforce keyboards to have three weight levels. Realforce keyboards with uniformly weighted keys are also made in 30 grams, 45 grams and 55 grams configurations. Uniformly weighted configurations are perhaps more popular with gamers because the popular ‘WASD’ cluster is not made up of differently weighted keys like it is on a variable keyboard.

http://deskthority.net/wiki/Topre_Realforce#Key_Weight

Topre's error bounds are too broad to be really sure by measurement alone, and Topre itself is a proper Japanese company that likes to keep its mouth shut! To Cherry's credit, at least the MX line is well defined. Switch weights are exactly the sort of thing we users like to discuss!


@Zts: The NovaTouch is a complex story. I frequently link people to my review simply because I explained it at length there! CM had me testing beta hardware during the board's development. All the details are there…

http://deskthority.net/review-f45/a-tal ... t8968.html

In short, it's not the board it could have been. We'll see what CM can do with the followup. And indeed what Topre's learned from it for their own line. MX mount Topre is a revelation if you have a nice collection of caps, which if you read DT for long you're in serious danger that you will! I've had some success damping mine, Type-S style, on the inside of the switch housings rather than from on top. Ironically, if it had been damped Topre like its purple sliders indicated from the beginning, the NovaTouch should have wound up a better board in every respect!

[zts]

Sounds like there might be a HiPro in my future, then. 25970 JPY is only about 215 USD at today's rates:

http://www.amazon.co.jp/dp/B00DONW9D6/

On the slow boat it might be under 250 USD. That seems worth the wait.

the pics on that site show the top of the caps as being more flat than they are. The *cup* is actually more pronounced or deeper. Just make sure you want that.
Edit: http://deskthority.net/resources/image/19092

[SL89]

Ik in in for a hi pro after some advice from Mu and 002, I'm still turn between the 104UK and the JIS layout in the Just board.

[zts]

Ik in in for a hi pro after some advice from Mu and 002, I'm still turn between the 104UK and the JIS layout in the Just board.

.. another one is also 104UK, but US/Korean -- model YK11K0. Quite nice.

[Muirium]

Yeah, they're beautiful:



If you've ever used SA profile, you know what to expect. I've got a beamspring with even deeper scooped caps, the feel is broadly in line with SA as well. Quite different from DSA, or any cylindricals out there.




@SL: Go for the Just. It's epic, and the Koreans won't let you get away lightly! You really want to know someone over there (like a certain Leopold aficionado I already mentioned) who can help you out with the Leopold exclusive UK model. I don't know a Korean equivalent of Tenso. But even if there is one, Leopold's prices for Realforces in Korea are higher than Topre's in Japan.

[SL89]

That was what i meant, i ended up editing it as soon as i re-read it. I quite like the beige and the hangul legends

[zts]

That was what i meant, i ended up editing it as soon as i re-read it. I quite like the beige and the hangul legends

it looks like this:

hipro_1.jpeg (353.3 KiB) Viewed 6294 times

[Muirium]

Yeah, that's the one. I've posted many a picture of it around the forum. But the Just "Round 5 Homage Edition" is better still, if you ask me. Plenty of discussion of them both right here:

http://deskthority.net/product-news-f44 ... t9313.html

[XMIT]

If I had a nice way to measure key force and travel I would use it. There are enough keyboards around here that it would result in some interesting data. I haven't looked into this much.

That 104UK is really something. Yours for only 375 USD shipped: http://www.ebay.com/itm/271731511083. Considering that 330000 South Korean Won equals 296.92 USD it is not a great deal.

[zts]

If I had a nice way to measure key force and travel I would use it. There are enough keyboards around here that it would result in some interesting data. I haven't looked into this much.

That 104UK is really something. Yours for only 375 USD shipped: http://www.ebay.com/itm/271731511083. Considering that 330000 South Korean Won equals 296.92 USD it is not a great deal.

You can get the black/grey one (YK2100) from EK for about $300 with shipping ... should be back in stock in a week. Should be a bit cheaper for you since you don't get robbed with CA tax.

Talking about Topre and great deals ... they rarely happen. Trade and used RFs are sometimes more affordable. Otherwise, the boards are in high demand and the international supply is terrible. And yet, if I can get my hands on that Just System variant that Muirium posted ... I think I'd part with $400-500 without a blink (and after selling 2 or 3 of my boards) ... it's that freaking nice

Edit: here are a few pics (YK2100):

hipro_grey1.jpeg (254.13 KiB) Viewed 6221 times

hipro_grey2.jpeg (238.5 KiB) Viewed 6221 times

[Muirium]

Or pay less and get the best one!



EK's markup is understandable, but why bother when they only carry the most boring of the HiPro line? It's a nice enough board of course (dur, HiPro) but I wouldn't pay extra to get the one with the least readable caps and least panache.

[zts]

Did an experiment last night .... it works as (not) advertised . 55g TKL HiPro:

hipro_TKL55_1.jpeg (285.66 KiB) Viewed 6110 times

hipro_TKL55_2.jpeg (204.35 KiB) Viewed 6110 times

hipro_TKL55_3.jpeg (266.4 KiB) Viewed 6110 times

Standard lighter grey CTRL keys are there to cover up for the Left CTRL key that is using horizontal thread ... and HiPro doesn't have it in horizontal. ESC key is also standard but can be replaced too.

[Muirium]

Very nice. That with Bluetooth please! We're waiting, Topre!

Oh, you've got the beige Korean model too?