GMK Triumph Adler - now live on Massdrop!

[SL89]

its happening

[copter]

If there just would be other ISO kits available, I would have already ordered this one!

Really makes me cry to see all these awesome key caps, but just without support for my layout..

[Spikebolt]

Guys, just take this opportunity to learn how to touch type and not only your language problem is solved but you open the doors to many other amazing key sets.

[Stabilized]

I bought a raptor K1 in French Azerty format for cheap and I thought that because I can touch type it wouldn't be a problem. What I had realised is that I look down at the keys very quickly and without myself realising, especially when I am doing keyboard shortcuts and am away from the home row.

Just my way of saying that I completely understand with people who don't want to pay $100+ for a keyset with the wrong legends on.

[kbdfr]

Guys, just take this opportunity to learn how to touch type and not only your language problem is solved but you open the doors to many other amazing key sets.

I have been touch typing probably longer than you're alive
The problem is not the absence of the correct characters, but the presence of wrong ones,
not because they would disturb when typing, but because they would impair the visual appeal of the keyboard.

Besides, if the lettering was of such minor importance,
this set could have been lasered instead of doubleshot and would cost way less.
But of course keyboard junkies want the right stuff - and this applies not only to ANSI users wanting doubleshot caps,
but also to users of different ISO national layouts wanting their own language schemes.

[Ascaii]

I am still disappointed that there never was any research done into this. I know for a fact that a lot of ISO users would stick with their layouts and are willing to pay extra for it. I don't see why massdrop couldnt offer optional ISO addon kits, just make sure they have a reasonable tipping point of 100-200 units. Make this kit contain the specific german, french, nordic caps and offer it as an additional addon and I'm on board.

If I could get a set with my ISO legends, I would be willing to pay 150$, but I dont see the point of paying 100$ for something that will bother me on my keyboard, as kbdfr said.

[Vax]

I am still disappointed that there never was any research done into this. I know for a fact that a lot of ISO users would stick with their layouts and are willing to pay extra for it. I don't see why massdrop couldnt offer optional ISO addon kits, just make sure they have a reasonable tipping point of 50 units. German and nordic would be tipped in a matter of days. If I could get a set with my ISO legends, I would be willing to pay 150$., but I dont see the point of paying 100$ for something that will bother me on my keyboard, as kbdfr said.

Well it's all based on intellis creation. He decided to put hits up as a whole in one set. Also the A/B-Profile stuff makes me think twice about getting it. I just love the color combination. I guess I will have to think about it a couple more days.

[Ascaii]

They can still add the addon set. Ill be the first to jump on that option.

[copter]

I do touch type myself too, but as others have pointed out there are other things to take into consideration. Presence of wrong keys is one thing that simply just disturbs me. Also even I could go with just blanks, I find them boring and lacking personal feel. Fact is also that I myself too do look into the keyboard sometimes, specially if there is some crazy keyboard combo that I need to use, so proper layout is then preferred and improvement for productivity.

I could say that I have really close relationship with my keyboards, as I do use them a lot and they are not just eye candy for me. They are more like utilities or tools instead, which I like to be at their best shape when using them without distractions or other drawbacks. For me it means that they function, look and feel just right, not "close". This is just me, but I wouldn't be surprised if there would be others who feel the same way, as we still are having this discussion on a forum that is basically build by and around people who are enthusiastic about keyboards.

Spending more money is OK for me if the set is right and I think that I'm not alone. My planned order HOBEYB round is ~ 230 EUR and that's just for one TKL keyboard. To get the layout and colors I want, that's what it takes. I haven't calculated exactly, but I think that the same layout for ANSI would cost maybe ~ 120 EUR and for UK ISO maybe 160 EUR. But I'm not complaining, at least HONEYB has options for me.

But this discussion should be had somewhere else. I think these caps look just awesome and if there would be options for me, I would for sure put some extra cash on the table.

[Madhias]

Not a bad start at all, 10 days to go and 168 sets sold already. But also not that much, as I thought it would be - it is not a set I would use all day, too colorful or fancy. Could get boring fast! The keyboard itself is a nice collectible item of course. I'll wait for the beige GMK set, unfortunately the 80|15 set did not make it.

[SL89]

Right there with you Madhias, the teal is nice but I wanted some beige. Also there is supposedly a large buyer for 200 sets or something.

[Spikebolt]

Guys, just take this opportunity to learn how to touch type and not only your language problem is solved but you open the doors to many other amazing key sets.

I have been touch typing probably longer than you're alive
The problem is not the absence of the correct characters, but the presence of wrong ones,
not because they would disturb when typing, but because they would impair the visual appeal of the keyboard.

Besides, if the lettering was of such minor importance,
this set could have been lasered instead of doubleshot and would cost way less.
But of course keyboard junkies want the right stuff - and this applies not only to ANSI users wanting doubleshot caps,
but also to users of different ISO national layouts wanting their own language schemes.

I guess that as a Portuguese ISO user I'm already way more comfortable having the wrong legends than you guys. You can't always please everyone and I find this as an acceptable solution. This discussion was had months ago, it is probably way too late to re-discuss and change it now.

[Ascaii]

I decided to join the discussion over at massdrop and this is intellis response (im not even going to bother posting the replis some childish GHers responded with)

However there has been so much whinging and complaining that I am floating an idea on GH: if Massdrop is down for it, after this buy ends, we run either (1) a mega pack with all the keys that people are asking for (ISO, alternate modifiers, winkeys, 1800, etc etc etc), or (2) a bunch of child deals with all the same keys, but split up.

This way there can be no more complaining, because the opportunity will have been offered.

I think either way will be a /magnificent/ flop. But apparently people can't accept that without actually going through the motions. So why not put the opportunity on the table and let it play out how it may, maybe we'll get a pleasant surprise on a kit or two. Then we'll have good data for the future, and it will be a lesson learned that we can point to to quash complaining in future buys.

There is no prospect whatsoever of changing the base set that's up now. It's final. But if people want to go through the motions to find out what we, frankly, already know -- that there's not enough support for the addons... well, let's let them see how it plays out? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

ISO, here we come.

[copter]

YES!

[Ascaii]

YES!

I have offered intelli my time to help make it happen. I am keeping my fingers crossed.

[Ascaii]

Nevermind, he backpedalled again. Here is what he wrote on geekhack:

The criticism about the IC thread is just rubbish. Everything was available for public commentary; the render has shown R5 keys and it's been explained in the OP for months. It was all on paper, there was no deception whatsoever, only people who weren't careful and now want to point fingers to avoid taking responsibility for their own failure to pay attention to things that are apparently dealbreakers to them. Everyone had months--literally--to comment. I've got no sympathy.

And leave Photekq out of it, all decisions were ultimately mine, and he is in no way responsible for any of it. <3

I took a long walk this evening to clear my head on this issue. On one hand I genuinely feel for folks who are bummed about missing keys, and I have an urge to try to help make it right.

On the other hand, I am just really over all the drama. It's really a god damn shame that some GHers have lost perspective on this set and are trying to turn a revolutionary GB (imperfect as all GBs are) into a whinge fest and a net negative for the community. F*** that noise, I won't let it happen.

This set is gonna kick ass, and the hundreds of people already in the buy are proof of that. The whinging minority here is not going to get the best of this buy. I am glad I floated the idea of extra keys, because it generated some very wise comments.

So with that, there will be no additional keys or further tampering with the GB. Case closed, period. I am washing my hands of it, the only thing left is to blast through 500 and sell as many sets as possible. :thumb: After that, anyone who wants to spearhead an add-on effort has my full blessing, but it's not going to be me. The folks in this thread are right; there will be no winning by scrambling now, all it will do is alter the criticisms and teach people to rage on future GB organizers even harder. My only regret is wavering at all in the face of this whining. Anybody who paid attention to the IC knows that while I am stubborn, I did listen to the feedback I heard and compromised on it. As to the feedback that never happened, it's too late now.

Any additional requests for changes or complaining about keys are, at this point, 100% threadcrapping. So if you want to do that, I highly, highly suggesting just clicking out of the thread instead and voting with your wallet.

I will not be participating in this group buy, as much as I hate missing it.

[kbdfr]

Any additional requests for changes or complaining about keys are, at this point, 100% threadcrapping.

Considering only negative comments to be threadcrapping is sort of… sort of…
Well, it's like governments forbidding street marches only when they are directed against them.
If I were active on GH, I would feel almost compelled to post there - and probably be banned soon

If a German user were to start a GB for a German Moogle kit (i.e. 1.25u modifiers in vintage colours) just for the German community, how many ANSI users would join and accept to have "Strg" as a legend on their "Control" caps?
Well, that's what they expect from us: accepting wrong legends, but all over the board.

I still find a purely ANSI group buy is a honest thing: "we ANSI users are a big community and we will hit the MOQ - we don't care about others".
What bothers me is "OK, ISO folks, we are adding a few caps which will physically fit your boards, if not your national layouts - this will raise the price by $5, but this way we will reach the next price step, making those perfect ANSI sets with a few useless ISO caps $10 cheaper, so we ANSI guys save $5 in the end - with the help of the ISO community."

[Muirium]

As Ghandi said: If your community believes in "threadcrapping" as a thing, and wants to purge it, go fuck yourselves.

[DanielT]

On GH threadcrapping is a capital offense. I refrain from such behavior over there It's painful because it's in my nature to comment. One example is a guy selling Vim SA caps for 7$ a piece My fingers are itching to post in his thread and say that he is a complete asshole selling 0.70$ caps from the GB Alin and I organized where 700 caps like that were sold for that insane price. But if I would post a comment like that I would be shot
I still enjoy my time on GH, there are a lot of cool guys over there and I mean a lot and it's fun to interact with them.


Europeans are a minority for them, the big money is in US and ASIA so they don't care about what we would like. For me life is easy, I use only ANSI US, and if I get a 1.75u Shift in the kit is what I need for my boards. But this is not the point. Including ISO keys in the sets would add a plus, I'm thinking about keys like the Μμ or Q@ , those caps look novel even on ANSI, I use them on my Charred Orange GMK from the Skidata set.
But My guess people have their mind set to do it this way, so there is no chance for the extras.

I was tempted by this set, but I don't want to deal with MD and don't like the mixed bottom profile and other stuff.

[Spikebolt]

I think you guys are completely overreacting. He does have a point, you know... Anyone could have voiced their opinion for months.... The thread was advertised everywhere, if anyone had an interest to discuss it one could have done that. We all have a preferred community but what's the harm of discussing something you care about on GH? (Note: I don't browse GH, not trying to advocate anything here).

He offers anyone the possibility to create the ISO GB and says anyone would have his blessing. He doesn't want to run a GB he doesn't believe in, I think that's perfectly fair. Ascaii you showed interest in collaborating with the said GB, why don't you run it instead? If you believe in it why not run it?

I don't think any complains about lack of keys is 100% threadcrapping but when the deal is closed and everything is set what good does it have to complain about x missing? In my opinion nothing... You are in your right to not buy the set, that's fine.

I really respect intelli78 and all he's been doing for the keyboard community but my opinion wouldn't be different if it was Muirium running it.

[DanielT]

Intelli78 has done a great job, he managed to convince MD to run this, GMK to do a custom color. I love also his other work, I have one of his custom keyboard cases. But that's not the point.
If you come to a community and present a final product and all the IC was done somewhere else such a reaction can be expected. I'm active on both GH and DT but this is not a general rule, I folowed the IC and I understood the decisions.

[copter]

I can fully understand intelli78's view and I have no problem with it. I posted my comment here more towards people who have trouble understanding why everybody is not using ANSI or ISO UK instead of their national layout.

[Muirium]

The artful way to deal with troublesome naysayers isn't deleting their comments (insert slippery slope to outright forum censorship argument here) but to answer them back in public. If they're repeat offenders, links to previous answers work well too. The people to keep in mind are the fresh eyes showing up who have no knowledge of all past events.

[scottc]

This "threadcrapping" thing is such a load of utter nonsense. It's a thinly-veiled excuse made for people who don't want to deal with valid criticism and dissenting opinions. What's worse is, as Mu said, deleting these "craps", which is something that MiniH-^S^S^SGeekHack seems to do very well.

One example is a guy selling Vim SA caps for 7$ a piece My fingers are itching to post in his thread and say that he is a complete asshole selling 0.70$ caps from the GB Alin and I organized where 700 caps like that were sold for that insane price. But if I would post a comment like that I would be shot

This shit. This is exactly what I mean!

[Spikebolt]

If you come to a community and present a final product and all the IC was done somewhere else such a reaction can be expected. I'm active on both GH and DT but this is not a general rule, I folowed the IC and I understood the decisions.

But it was advertised everywhere. I'm not active on GH and I was able to at least follow it. Everyone who wanted to join the IC had more than enough time to join the discussion. It's really unfair for the guy who dedicated so much time to make it happen that suddently, after everything is set, there are sudden realizations of "oh, by the way, DE layout is really important after all...".


I'm not here trying to defend every decision intelli78 ever made, and I haven't followed this MD drama. Just trying to say that I really see the rationale behind his decisions and that some of the crap that he's been getting is, in my opinion, really unfair.

[scottc]

It's really unfair for the guy who dedicated so much time to make it happen that suddently, after everything is set, there are sudden realizations of "oh, by the way, DE layout is really important after all...".

I don't think it's a "sudden realisation" of any kind. This has been a criticism for a long time. See this post for one of the earlier mentions of it.

[Ascaii]

I think you guys are completely overreacting. He does have a point, you know... Anyone could have voiced their opinion for months.... The thread was advertised everywhere, if anyone had an interest to discuss it one could have done that. We all have a preferred community but what's the harm of discussing something you care about on GH? (Note: I don't browse GH, not trying to advocate anything here).

He offers anyone the possibility to create the ISO GB and says anyone would have his blessing. He doesn't want to run a GB he doesn't believe in, I think that's perfectly fair. Ascaii you showed interest in collaborating with the said GB, why don't you run it instead? If you believe in it why not run it?

I don't think any complains about lack of keys is 100% threadcrapping but when the deal is closed and everything is set what good does it have to complain about x missing? In my opinion nothing... You are in your right to not buy the set, that's fine.

I really respect intelli78 and all he's been doing for the keyboard community but my opinion wouldn't be different if it was Muirium running it.

Actually, by the time he posted here the discussion on reddit and geekhack was already so far along it was impossible to give sensible input without facing a wall of the regular circlejerk geekhack attitude i have come to depise. There is a reason I hardly ever post over at GH anymore, and I used to be a major part in that community when i first got into mechanical keyboards.

Spikebolt, I have already been in contact with intelli for weeks and I have (recently) offered my help in making an ISO addon a reality. I have no problems running an IC, but I do not see the point in making it a completely seperate GB...you limit yourself to only the people that have previously purchased the set from MD, so with the way it is currently set up i could not reach MOQ unless it was offered as a drop on MD. I will work out a concept for an all inclusive GB to follow up after the drop is through and interest peaks again. I hope intelli will be willing to get me in touch with the folks at MD and his contacts at GMK to make my life a little bit easier.


As for the threadcrapping angle...I feel that a lot of sincere commentary and constructive criticism gets misinterpreted as crap and complaints, which is why it gets ignored instead of addressed...which in turn leads to more negativity, its a never ending circle that drives people farther apart that should be coming together. From the beginning, I felt this GMK group buy was the one thing that could unify the worldwide community, but the creators had a different vision and I respect that. For me, this topic is not over; lets see what happens in the coming year.

[DanielT]

I think that we should get organized and create a GB tailored to our needs, a GMK GB, because there have been a lot of GB's that addressed all the localization "issues" (Granite, Round5 ..) . GMK is in Europe, I just don't see why we could not find 250 individuals interested in something like this. I know people think "why should I buy a set that includes Nordic or German stuff if I don't use it" , well the answer is simple, you do it for the community because none of this would ever exist without Americans, Germans, Italians, French, Swedish, Koreans and the list can go on. In such a project people should think that buy paying something extra is making a gift to a fellow keyboard enthusiast. If people are ready to pay 30-40$ for an artisan cap I'm sure they will be able to do that for some extra caps.
I wouldn't mind buying a GMK set that contains Nordic or German legends, even if I use ANSI US those caps would be like novelty caps for me and fun to use on my board.
Just my 0.02$ I know sometimes I expect to much from others...

[scottc]

I think it would be cool to organise an ANSI to UK/DE/NOR/FR/... adapter set. Or even a DE to UK/NOR/UK/etc adapter. DE doubleshots are so common and so cheap to get in really good condition.

[Spikebolt]

It's really unfair for the guy who dedicated so much time to make it happen that suddently, after everything is set, there are sudden realizations of "oh, by the way, DE layout is really important after all...".

I don't think it's a "sudden realisation" of any kind. This has been a criticism for a long time. See this post for one of the earlier mentions of it.

Yes, Ascaii was the one true who said "this isn't for me" from the start so, obviously, he's not included in the late party bandwagon. Not trying to be rude, but apparently only one person on DT cared enough to call it a dealbreaker at the proper timing.

Spikebolt, I have already been in contact with intelli for weeks and I have (recently) offered my help in making an ISO addon a reality. I have no problems running an IC, but I do not see the point in making it a completely seperate GB...you limit yourself to only the people that have previously purchased the set from MD, so with the way it is currently set up i could not reach MOQ unless it was offered as a drop on MD. I will work out a concept for an all inclusive GB to follow up after the drop is through and interest peaks again. I hope intelli will be willing to get me in touch with the folks at MD and his contacts at GMK to make my life a little bit easier.

There's also a reason I don't go on GH as well, but for matters such as these I do make exceptions.

I think that a complete different GB makes perfect sense but I rarely ever see ISO kits succeed, unfortunately. I can't blame intelli78 for not wanting to run a GB and having the associated work and responsibility on something he doesn't believe in. I also don't believe it, wouldn't even consider setting something up but might end up buying a kit in order to help the community. Best of lucks with that.