Different Models of F flippers

idollar · 22 Jan 2015, 21:10

Hi,

I was restoring an IBM XT. A flipper broke (again) and I replace it with one of my beloved donors. Nothing special here.
I actually did not care a lot about the key that got it. In my previous AT restoration I had no problems.

I mounted the keyboard with the regular pain of the F pain. A key did not work.
I open it, check it, and tried again. More than 5 times !

At the end I decided to test all the keys. Only one did not click.
I changed the spring. Same behavior
I moved the flipper to a different barrel. Same thing.
I checked it with a barrel alone on the table. Indeed, It did not click.

So I checked the flipper and I realised that it was different ! The flipper that I replaced was different !

I have make pictures of the flippers. Perhaps some one can help to clarify this mistery.
The XT ones are in ones on the right, with the cut at the end of the base.

PS1: I will post pictures of the restoration for reference as I did with the AT
PS2: A set of donors flippers come from a different XT. I do not know about the others. I will ask.

Cheers

idollar · 22 Jan 2015, 22:33

Note that the springs sit at different angles also !

andrewjoy · 23 Jan 2015, 00:58

I think it may well be the springs not the flippers as i have both types in my XT and 122 and it clicks just fine, try switching the springs about.

idollar · 23 Jan 2015, 07:26

andrewjoy wrote: ↑I think it may well be the springs not the flippers as i have both types in my XT and 122 and it clicks just fine, try switching the springs about.

I tried combinations of different flippers and springs.
I came to the conclusion that the root cause is in the flippers.

fohat · 23 Jan 2015, 14:22

You guys are making me flip out.

I have used parts from Model Fs interchangeably and never had problems.

Now I am afraid that something will happen.

andrewjoy · 23 Jan 2015, 15:19

I am guessing you have tried a different cap yes just incase ?

idollar · 23 Jan 2015, 15:24

Your keyboards will not explode ... my symptoms were obvious, the key did not click at all. If your keys click, do not worry.

Initially I thought that the cap was not correctly inserted. You know ... the typical key that needs some little keyboard tilting while installed. But it did not work. So I open and closed the keyboard. Up to 5 times !
Then I thought that the spring was wrong. I tried a new one. Same thing (add two more open/close to the list).
I then changed the flipper to a different barrel. Same thing. (add one more open/close to the list).
I finally decided to take off a barrel and test it against a glass table, like the demonstrators do. It was obvious that the combination would not work.

I changed the flipper and it finally worked.

I checked the differences and they are indeed different (check the pictures). Front and back. Also the angle of the spring.

I will post new and better pictures. The kitchen lamp is not the best source of light, I know.
I may do some videos also. I just need to find the time ... while convincing my wife that I am not completely mad, just the normal bit.

Cheers

idollar · 23 Jan 2015, 15:25

andrewjoy wrote: ↑I am guessing you have tried a different cap yes just incase ?

Yes. I tried different caps during the 5 initial open/close ...

andrewjoy · 23 Jan 2015, 15:26

idollar wrote: ↑Your keyboards will not explode ... my symptoms were obvious, the key did not click at all. If your keys click, do not worry.

Initially I thought that the cap was not correctly inserted. You know ... the typical key that needs some little keyboard tilting while installed. But it did not work. So I open and closed the keyboard. Up to 5 times !
Then I thought that the spring was wrong. I tried a new one. Same thing (add two more open/close to the list).
I then changed the flipper to a different barrel. Same thing. (add one more open/close to the list).
I finally decided to take off a barrel and test it against a glass table, like the demonstrators do. It was obvious that the combination would not work.

I changed the flipper and it finally worked.

I checked the differences and they are indeed different (check the pictures). Front and back. Also the angle of the spring.

I will post new and better pictures. The kitchen lamp is not the best source of light, I know.
I may do some videos also. I just need to find the time ... while convincing my wife that I am not completely mad, just the normal bit.

Cheers

as i said i think i have some of both types left so tell me what you need if you need a replacement and i will send one over.

idollar · 23 Jan 2015, 18:27

andrewjoy wrote: ↑[
as i said i think i have some of both types left so tell me what you need if you need a replacement and i will send one over.

Thank you. It works now. I had a flipper that worked with the XT keyboard. So I do not need anything at present.
Thanks for your kind offer !

0100010 · 25 Jan 2015, 00:47

For the ones I sent you - the ones that have the angled corners came from an IBM 3178. The ones that have the rounded corners came from an F107 (4704). EDIT : The ones you pictured that have the notched corners - I have not seen ones like that before.

cinnamonrollz · 25 Jan 2015, 04:11

My 107 key 4704 board has atleast 3 different types of flippers. The most interesting ones being smooth plastic instead of rough.

Touch_It · 25 Jan 2015, 06:53

Hmm. I didn't really pay attention to the flippers on my 4704. Maybe I could tell from one of my pics. Seems lightly odd there are different variations. Maybe it had something to do with different curvature of plates amongst different models?

andrewjoy · 25 Jan 2015, 12:32

the square ones are XT flippers its the only place i have seen them.

idollar · 25 Jan 2015, 15:17

Andrew,

I just ANSI converted an Spanish 122 Model F, made in UK, to US Ansi (pictures will be posted as soon as I find the time to process them). The seller told me that keyboard has been sitting in an old Telefonica office in Spain for at least 20 years.
In my experience I do not think that the keyboard has ever gone through a restoration/repair process.

This time I took a look at each and every single switch and ...
There were two square ones among all of the round ones.

What follows is just a theory that I cannot demonstrate: it could be that the square flippers are XT that were reused in "modern" Fs. If this theory is correct, it could also be that the modern Fs are back-compatible (square flippers can be used in newer Fs) but that the new flippers do not work in older models ...

I am sure that many of you can fight the idea above

idollar · 25 Jan 2015, 23:48

Here is the post with the pictures from the 122F flippers.

idollar · 26 Jan 2015, 00:20

The second set of flippers from the right have been seen in a 4704.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/321650836414?_t ... EBIDX%3AIT

LLRnR · 31 Mar 2015, 21:06

Sorry for resurrecting a two-month old thread, but I though it wouldn't be necessary to start a new one for this silly and related question: if I ever get a Model F and find that some springs are rusted or deformed, could I use springs from a Model M or from Unicomp? If this is possible, is it easy to remove the bad spring from the flipper and replace it with the new one?

scottc · 31 Mar 2015, 21:08

Nope, you can't use Model M springs.

The good news: I've got a load of spares, and so do lots of other nice members so you don't need to worry! It's so easy to disassemble a Model F. Have you ever done a bolt mod on an M? It's 100x easier than that. Just a single metal plate that you slide into place. It's really great.

LLRnR · 31 Mar 2015, 21:11

scottc wrote: ↑Nope, you can't use Model M springs.

The good news: I've got a load of spares so you don't need to worry! It's so easy to disassemble a Model F. Have you ever done a bolt mod on an M? It's 100x easier than that. Just a single metal plate that you slide into place. It's really great.

Thanks for the reply. Yes, I've done a single bolt mod on one of my Ms. I know it's easier for Fs, as they do not require a bolt mod. I don't have one yet, but I'm hoping that Cindy might miraculously find some ATs somewhere. So if I understand correctly, the only type of spring that works on a F would have to come from another F? This is a factor I hadn't considered...

EDIT: But yeah, hopefully, if I do get a Model F, it won't have too many dead springs so that I can get some replacements from some of you nice folks here with a load of spares on hand

scottc · 31 Mar 2015, 21:13

Yep, they need to come from another F.

LLRnR · 31 Mar 2015, 21:15

scottc wrote: ↑Yep, they need to come from another F.

OK, thanks for the clarification. I have a better understanding now. It would have been so much easier if I liked MX more than BS

scottc · 31 Mar 2015, 21:18

No problem. I don't know, a life of spring replacements, switch lubing, stickers and $500 dyesubs would be tough too... At least IBMs already come with nice dyesubbed caps!

LLRnR · 31 Mar 2015, 21:21

Hehe!