Let's create the FSSK/FEXT = DONE !!!!

[andrewjoy]

it cannot be hard in this modern age to get some F flippers and springs made, i dont have an SSK to kill ( it woudl be rude to kill mine as it was NIB and i am the only ever user . But if i could find a junker, something with just a case and plate ... That would be the plan. Failing that i will just pick up another sliver label 102 terminal and go nuts with that.

[seebart]

it cannot be hard in this modern age to get some F flippers and springs made, i dont have an SSK to kill ( it woudl be rude to kill mine as it was NIB and i am the only ever user . But if i could find a junker, something with just a case and plate ... That would be the plan. Failing that i will just pick up another sliver label 102 terminal and go nuts with that.

I imagine that for the FSSK to feel "right" like the F122 those reproduced flippers better have the exact right specs like the original ones. Now one might laugh and think, hell it`s only a tiny flipper. But remember how old those parts are in respect to plastic and spring quality. Pretty sure IBM did not use any ranndom parts they could get in their keyboard production. Probably custom designed and produced to exact IBM specs and tested thoroughly before going into production. What I`m saying is that the FSSK might feel different with reproduced flippers and springs. We shall see. Great work i$ !

[andrewjoy]

true, we would need a good OEM to make them , not just farm them out to the cheapest OEM in china.

There are many variants of the flipper for model F and i honestly cannot tell the difference between them. i think its all to do with the angle of the flipper and its weight . It acts like a leaver on the spring thus needing less to bypass the "buckling"of the spring in comparison to an M. I think thats the main difference between them , other than the spring being slightly lighter. Try it, take a model M flipper and spring and put them next to each other and see how much easier it is to make the model F one buckle vs the M.

On top of that you have the much higher build quality with the crazy thick top and black plate with a PCB as a landing in place of a nasty rubber mat and membrane.

This project should solve almost all of the build quality issues, a PCB and a thick backplate nice hard landing + F flippers = AWSOME!

[idollar]

Let me repeat that the material used for the F flippers cannot be pure plastic. The capacitance would not change if there is not conductive material in the feet. I have not tested the conductivity of the F flippers, but we should cross-check my theory.

If the new flippers shall be done in plastic, one could always paint them with conductive paint. The effect in the capacitor of this setup is unknown to me. It shall be tested.

The same principle (add conductive paint) could be used with "normal" M flippers, but the ultimate goal (F feeling) would not be reached. I guess that most of the difference is in the fact that the F feet are larger than the M. Also, a different PCB would be needed as the conductive-M would hit the PCB in a different area.

Anyhow, the simpler solution is to ask UNICOMP. There should still be someone from the IBM times that could answer our questions. They may even have the machinery that was used to create the F flippers.

--> Does anyone know a contact that could be used for this purpose ?

In any case ... lets resolve the first step before we start with the next one. All the above shall be resolved/answered later. For the time being we (I) have enough flippers to test the concept. Once this first step is successful we can start thinking on the following ones. We (I) have to be patient.

[andrewjoy]

I have always wondered if unicomp got the tooling for the F's, i don't see why they would not , Lexmark had it after all so why would they not get it ? We need to ask them. They may be willing to sell us the tooling or use it to make what we need if the order is high enough/

[seebart]

I have always wondered if unicomp got the tooling for the F's, i don't see why they would not , Lexmark had it after all so why would they not get it ? We need to ask them. They may be willing to sell us the tooling or use it to make what we need if the order is high enough/

in the worst case they might not be so commutative with their company internals due to some buisiness agreements they signed with Lexmark International, Inc. back in the day. Of course we don`t know that. It`s worth a try asking.

Wikipedia says they got the "tooling"...but not which ones:

Unicomp was founded in April 1996 when they purchased the license, tooling and the rights to the design for the buckling-spring keyboard technology (the technology behind the famous IBM Model M and many other keyboards) from Lexmark International, Inc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unicomp

[Khers]

Interesting phrase you've highlighted! Sort of indicates they got the tooling for F as well. Or maybe just rubberdomes and other nasties.

[seebart]

Interesting phrase you've highlighted! Sort of indicates they got the tooling for F as well. Or maybe just rubberdomes and other nasties.

I do not know. I`m not sure if we have someone here that does know for sure. Unicomp never produced F`s AFAIK. Doesen`t mean they don`t have the tools. We`ve had this question here before, I know that.

[Khers]

Also, even if they did get the tooling from Lexmark, there is no guarantee that they still have it or that it's functional. I've never seen any indication of a Unicomp F either, but they do seem to be of the opinion that full size Ms are the ultimate keyboard so maybe thay just haven't bothered, similar to the SSK...

[seebart]

Also, even if they did get the tooling from Lexmark, there is no guarantee that they still have it or that it's functional. I've never seen any indication of a Unicomp F either, but they do seem to be of the opinion that full size Ms are the ultimate keyboard so maybe thay just haven't bothered, similar to the SSK...

I'm sure it has /had more to do with a financial and or logistic aspect. F's may be more expensive and elaborate in production, so they simply said it's an "out of date" keyboard. Lexmark had stopped producing F's by 1994 so I guess Unicomp did not go back to that production line two years later.

The Model F was a series of computer keyboards produced from 1981–1994 by IBM and later Lexmark.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_F_keyboard

oh look they got a nice comparison pic on that page too:

476px-Buckling_spring_comparison.jpg (15.96 KiB) Viewed 6080 times

[idollar]

Anyhow, the simpler solution is to ask UNICOMP. There should still be someone from the IBM times that could answer our questions. They may even have the machinery that was used to create the F flippers.

--> Does anyone know a contact that could be used for this purpose ?

We can simply ask. There is nothing to lose.
But we need to know where to start. Is there anyone near Lexington, Kentucky ?
If I get no answer, I may email/call them. As I said, we can lose nothing and win a lot.

---> http://www.pckeyboard.com/page/CTUS

Unicomp, Inc.
510 Henry Clay Blvd.
Lexington, Ky 40505
Monday through Friday
8:00 AM to 5:00 PM EST
TollFree: (800) 777 - 4886
Toll: (859) 233 - 2130
Sales and Technical Support: support@pckeyboard.com
Knowledgebase: support.pckeyboard.com

[seebart]

With your skills and productivity this project will be successful i$. But there's no need to rush it. You've found out a lot already!

[Muirium]

I can tell you guys have never actually talked with Unicomp! I had the pleasure of an hour or two in total on the phone with Jeanne during last month's GB. I asked about SSK barrel frames. She was sure they have no such thing. But at Chzel's request I added the appropriate product code to my order and we were sent two of them! It's likely the people still at Unicomp after all these years don't even know what their stuff is. They just follow orders. Outdated, confused, incomplete orders.


@i$ I've been told that F flippers are plastic with a metallic compound either in the mix or on the surface. Keeps 'em light. This was a trick developed for their ancestor: the beamspring. The fly plates in those were lifted up by the keystroke and needed to be lightweight. Model F inherited the same sense pad design and so they used the same material.

[chzel]

The conductive material (graphite?) is probably added in the material. I had the pleasure of breaking a flipper and it doesn't seem to be coated under a 10x loupe. BTW thin CA works great to repair it!

[Muirium]

Yeah, your guess is the same as mine. Carbon in the mix. It never wears off, no matter how much use these flippers see. Same principle as doubleshots, only without the need for any more than one shot.

I think I heard the material is resin. But I could be wrong. Whatever it is it's not crumbly 3D print cake!

[seebart]

It's likely the people still at Unicomp after all these years don't even know what their stuff is. They just follow orders. Outdated, confused, incomplete orders.

That's pretty much the worst case scenario then. Too bad.

[andrewjoy]

Someone there must know what they have. There with be an old man in the corner with a beard and a pipe that worked for IBM back in the day that knows everything. Need to speak to him!

[seebart]

Someone there must know what they have. There with be an old man in the corner with a beard and a pipe that worked for IBM back in the day that knows everything. Need to speak to him!

Yes that's who we need, I'd have more other questions though...

[andrewjoy]

Someone there must know what they have. There with be an old man in the corner with a beard and a pipe that worked for IBM back in the day that knows everything. Need to speak to him!

Yes that's who we need, I'd have more other questions though...

Or we need a double agent ! Any jobs going at unicomp ?

[fohat]

As far as sourcing parts, if we are only talking about a small number of people building these things, it is not a problem to get the "small parts" for yourself by parting out obsolete Fs. I have an F XT plus about half of another one sitting in a box waiting for the XTant project to happen.

Model M barrel plates and back plates are no problem, for an SSK configuration you can literally saw off the last few inches and fold the mylar sheets around the back.

I believe that it is the compressed/tensioned heavy plates are essential to give the F its "life" but if you don't agree, then the case itself will be the biggest problem.

[seebart]

I believe that it is the compressed/tensioned heavy plates are essential to give the F its "life" but if you don't agree, then the case itself will be the biggest problem.

I agree specifically with that point. I also think the plates make up an essential part of the "feel" of Model F. I know you have quite a bit of experience with Model F's. All this reminds me I need to get on with my IBM 3104 terminal project.

[Touch_It]

So if we can do this for an SSK, is there anything stopping this from being done on a IBM M or even a Unicomp M? Besides the PCB this would in essence be the same project correct? A Unicomp F 103 key would be amazing! (I can dream right?)

[andrewjoy]

The newer style of unicomp cases may not have the space , but the classic would.

OO how about a unicomp PC 122 but as an F ? Hmmm ? Oh wait

I would be doing the project with a 102 terminal if it works out well. Plenty of them around and they have a good layout and a sturdy case / top cover , none of the more modern beige top case rubbish.

[Redmaus]

What if Unicomp also has the tooling for 4704 metal cases? Its worth asking.

[andrewjoy]

He he, we are not that lucky. We cannot even buy some 4704s without some banker shredding them ! twice !

[seebart]

Yeah I'll never forget that bank story. Madness.

[snoopy]

hmm, seems like I should keep my bigfoot.

[Redmaus]

What if they have like 40 kishies in the closet?

[seebart]

Yes, you are allowed to dream Redmaus.

[Khers]

Until the closet comes up empty, you should!