Topre introducing RGB, actuation control and analog switches

Mal-2 · 21 May 2015, 11:18

chzel wrote: ↑Yeah, OS support is entirely different than application support.

OS support means a typing keyboard could send scancodes in the guise of a USB HID device, while simultaneously sending MIDI key-on and key-off and velocity and aftertouch data as a MIDI device. If software doesn't speak MIDI, you still can type. If it does, or if you have middleware to translate, then you get the benefits of the velocity/pressure sensors. This would fit the needs of people who can take a keyboard to work, but can't install anything. At least the keyboard would Just Work, and never break anything. You'd just have all this MIDI data flying around, being ignored.

Muirium · 21 May 2015, 11:19

But what benefits? Who supports this?

Mal-2 · 21 May 2015, 11:30

Muirium wrote: ↑But what benefits? Who supports this?

I can imagine the benefits of being able to use a "normal" (if high-end) keyboard both for typing and for input of beats in a manner similar to the Ableton Push or Novation Launchpad, and of course those already "speak MIDI". (Controllably backlit keyboards would be even better, rather than just being gamer bling.)

My input device of choice for that other kind of keyboard is my Korg N1, because at 25 kg or so, it doesn't go anywhere. It's not the most piano-like keyboard I've ever used, but for what I paid, it ain't bad.

The trick as I see it is that you need a critical mass first. This could be built by courting musicians who also need to type (which is to say, most of us). We already have software that speaks MIDI, why not use the interface? It's also 35 years old at this point, so no worry about patent trolls biting you on the ass. MIDI-over-USB is pretty well defined as well, meaning you don't have to reinvent the wheel.

Then, once it's proven by a small but vocal group such as working musicians, others can feel more confident jumping on the bandwagon of software support. As a plus side, I don't think this kind of sensing is physically possible with a dome-and-membrane keyboard, so you'd see more "analog" keyboards pop up as competition, and some of them would likely be more pleasant alternatives to crap domes. Then, unless they're stupid expensive, even non-gamers and non-musicians would buy them just because they don't suffer the flaws of cheap dome-and-membrane construction.

The problem is, as you pointed out, bootstrapping. I'm trying to point out that a market may exist that doesn't even know it needs or wants this.

Muirium · 21 May 2015, 11:37

A great many products are launched for perceived (but disinterested) niches like that. And the press release copy pasta early reviews talk tall like you said about how all the pieces are in place and omg game changer.

Then time passes. Few were ever sold. And we forget all about it, besides one guy in Germany who adds another Bring Back The… page to his Amiga site.

Mal-2 · 21 May 2015, 11:43

Muirium wrote: ↑A great many products are launched for perceived (but disinterested) niches like that. And the press release copy pasta early reviews talk tall like you said about how all the pieces are in place and omg game changer.

Then time passes. Few were ever sold. And we forget all about it, besides one guy in Germany who adds another Bring Back The… page to his Amiga site.

The question then becomes: What's the startup cost? What is the cost of failure likely to be, and is it something the company is willing to live with? We're not talking about a five-digit price tag here, nor do they need to build a million of them to test the market. There are no crash tests, clinical trials, or other regulatory hurdles.

I'd liken it a little bit to the Akai EWI and its dimwitted (but still useful) little brother, the EWI USB. They haven't exactly been stellar sellers, but they've sold consistently for decades now (or merely years for the USB). Akai has hardly taken a bath on them.

Muirium · 21 May 2015, 11:47

The problem here is on the other side of the fence: software support. For variable speed / analog keyboards to take off, gamers need to find them attractive, and that means big games have got to start supporting this. It's a chicken and egg problem. Because they won't until the things sell well.

If we limit things to just musicians on the cheap, then sure there's no problem, or real win here. Topre makes the keyboard, and some small fraction of it's buyers use it as a stand in piano keyboard. But that's not what Topre, or any company outside the Akais and M-Audios, wants to achieve. The RGB LED thing is squarely aimed at mass (mech gamer) market. And this must be too.

Mal-2 · 21 May 2015, 11:57

Muirium wrote: ↑The problem here is on the other side of the fence: software support. For variable speed / analog keyboards to take off, gamers need to find them attractive, and that means big games have got to start supporting this. It's a chicken and egg problem. Because they won't until the things sell well.

If we limit things to just musicians on the cheap, then sure there's no problem, or real win here. Topre makes the keyboard, and some small fraction of it's buyers use it as a stand in piano keyboard. But that's not what Topre, or any company outside the Akais and M-Audios, wants to achieve. The RGB LED thing is squarely aimed at mass (mech gamer) market. And this must be too.

That's why I'm advocating for targeting an interface that already has such support, even if it's a smaller market. Game studios have musicians who understand MIDI, it's a pretty simple protocol (it had to be, for what was available at the time). Failing that, incorporating it is as hard as poaching a developer from Steinberg (if they want to do it Right This Second), or hitting the books for a bit. Meanwhile there's always the middleware option (since practically all game controllers basically use middleware already). WASD could emulate a thumbstick, including displacement, and just like that, it Just Works.

I can barely program my way out of a wet paper bag at this point. Ren'Py and YAML are about as far as I go any more. But even I can handle MIDI.

bhtooefr · 21 May 2015, 15:21

Honestly, a Bluetooth mech would solve a lot of problems with my tablet, and I'm tempted to just get one of the ThinkPad Bluetooth keyboards despite it being rubber dome. (A friend of mine who is intentionally avoiding mechanical keyboards (I will convert her eventually) got one at my suggestion for use with her tablet and loves it.) That said, Topre isn't actually what I want (although analog Topre is an interesting idea for sure).

Adjustable actuation Topre might make me hate it less, though, because my Type Heaven activates oddly, and tweaking the actuation point to match the domes more closely would make it better.

Also, plenty of devices back in the day supported recharging AA/AAA cells in-device, and simply had an alkaline/NiCd switch (either in hardware or software) to distinguish which was actually in there.

SL89 · 21 May 2015, 15:26

> ThinkPad Bluetooth keyboards despite it being rubber dome.

I thought those were scissor switch?

bhtooefr · 21 May 2015, 15:30

"Scissor switch" is such a misnomer, because the scissor doesn't do any switching in either the mechanical or electrical domains, it's just a form of stab that's on every key. It'd be like calling a board with Costar stabs "Costar switch", or a Logitech G910 "Cherry switch" just because it has Cherry-style stabs.

Scissor-stabilized rubber dome over membrane is the full correct terminology for that keyboard.

SL89 · 21 May 2015, 15:40

Thanks for explaining that one out for me. I really had never bothered to look into it. Regardless I have two of those (wireless and wired) and they are pretty decent little boards. Oh the whole IBM / Lenovo's Rubber Dome offerings are pretty decent.

XMIT · 25 May 2015, 03:36

FWIW I've considered doing the same sorts of analog key switch and variable actuation point tricks with Hall Effect switches. Much more expensive but potentially more precise. Xbox One uses Hall Effect sensors for the shoulder triggers. I'm excited to see what Topre comes up with here.

shrubbry · 25 May 2015, 07:29

Noticed when people were asking for TopreBT: Hasu may have been too polite to mention it, but just a reminder that he makes a swappable controller board for the HHKB that's TMK-programmable and USB/bluetooth. For sale @GH.

luckynet2 · 02 Jun 2015, 10:57

so... computex has already started, anyone seen the topre booth???

Lpwl · 02 Jun 2015, 11:00

Henry from ZealPC said he was going to.

002 · 02 Jun 2015, 11:17

I heard that the actuation control is only for Windows at this point, but I guess we'll have to wait and see. Not that it really bothers me as I am a filthy Windows pleb

Muirium · 02 Jun 2015, 11:44

Muirium wrote: ↑Hopefully not proprietary Windows only software! But that's all I can imagine if this is how they're doing it.

I told me so.

Lpwl · 03 Jun 2015, 10:50

Topre RGB switches confirmed.

002 · 03 Jun 2015, 10:59

Woooo!
I guess the board on the right is the actuation force control prototype

Muirium · 03 Jun 2015, 11:08

RGB Type Heaven?

Well, sure I guess. But here's the one we want:

Looks like mouse controls on the front of the keys. And multiple outputs or modes on the function row? Including MIDI… Mai will be happy.

Speculation engage!

matt3o · 03 Jun 2015, 11:16

PS3? XBOX?

Muirium · 03 Jun 2015, 11:18

…Controller!

002 · 03 Jun 2015, 11:27

I'd say they've rigged it up to consoles as they have the pressure sensitive buttons on their controllers (PS3 at least) and therefore more games they can use to showcase the new tech.

wlhlm · 03 Jun 2015, 11:54

Problem is that Sony scrapped analog buttons from the PS4 controller, because of lack of game support.

matt3o · 03 Jun 2015, 11:59

yay! xbox compatibility! Exactly what I was waiting for! \o/

Spoiler:

Nuum · 03 Jun 2015, 12:06

I think emulating an Xbox controller is a good way to make the analog switches work in games as almost every game is controllable by an Xbox controller, even on PC. Of course using a proper protocol like MIDI for controls would be better, but then the analog feedback would likely work only on games that actively support it.
The RGB backlight is nothing that interests me, though.

SL89 · 03 Jun 2015, 13:30

Midi + Topre would actually be very nice.

Muirium · 03 Jun 2015, 15:47

Something I always say about them is they swing a bit like a piano, so maybe!

Note the 3 sets of WASD-like arrows. I'm thinking those map to Playstation thumbsticks and the like. Which really makes me wonder, because I fell out of console gaming back when those first came out. Never felt natural to me. Are they any better when kludged into a keyboard!?

Probably not. But I could surely see playing MIDI piano on one of these. It won't exactly be a long one, but I'm guessing double deck.

SL89 · 03 Jun 2015, 15:59

Tbh even when I game on a PC I usually use something with analog sticks. Must be generational...

Muirium · 03 Jun 2015, 16:43

Keyboard and mouse beats thumb sticks like rock beats scissors, youngling. Besides, I know a gamer my age who also likes using Xbox controllers on his PC. I think it's because his Quake skills suck. Understandable, he has his mouse far too twitchy. Lining up shots is as clumsy as with thumsticks without auto aim!

So yeah, games got easier. Gamers are still the same.