Recommend me a keyboard!

[hrvoje]

Howdy, y'all!

I recently admitted to myself I have a keyboard fetish and stumbled upon this interesting community. Help a newbie out, please! I'm a sysadmin/coder (who obviously does a lot of typing) and currently use a Model M. Even though I love it and it's a true pleasure to type on it, it's way too loud. I even tried the dental floss mod, but that kind of ruins it for me and is still quite noisy for late night typing.

I'm located in EU and my budget for a new keyboard isn't too big. What would you recommend me?

1. I don't use the numpad at all.
2. I use arrows a lot.
3. Tactile feedback is a *must*, audible is a plus (but within reason).

Thanks!

[Muirium]

Welcome to DT. Sleepier than usual on a hot summer weekend… (not so hot here in Scotland of course, Scandinavia? Pah!)

4. So you want a TKL or do you just mean you'll grudgingly consider one?
5. Do you want backlights or are you a decent right thinking human being?
6. Ever tried any Cherry MX? They're the mainstream mechanical switch family. You have to try a bit harder (and usually spend a bit more) to avoid them.

[hrvoje]

Thanks, it's a pleasure to be here!

Had to Google what TKL is, but yes - that form factor would be very desirable since I've never gotten used to numeric keypad.

Backlights ... I don't know what I'd do with a back-lit keyboard, seems like an unnecessary complication.

I used to own a Cherry G81 20 years ago, but frankly - I don't remember what it was like. From what I've read on Deskthority Wiki, MX Brown or Blue would be my number because it gives a good tactile feedback (which I *love* on the Model M). I'm still having difficulty figuring out what keyboard you need to own to be able to get different keycaps offered through the forum for customization, I especially liked the VIM key I saw recently. Cool!

What could I buy for not too much money? Used/via forum is OK by me.

[Muirium]

A G81 would be Cherry MY switches, not MX. Supposedly the old ones were better, but all I know is the modern MY switch is a crime against humanity and its penny pinching perpetrator should be put before The Hague! They are worse than cheap, used, filthy rubberdomes. As in comprehensively so. As if designed as punishment.

Anywho, people are always looking to sell some boards, so yeah you should be in luck. MX is wonderful for fancy cap customisation options. And, uh, less wonderful in actual feel and sound, though this is a matter of significantly divergent taste. I'd try some MX switches if I were you. Cooler Master does a sample set for instance. Be cruel: put them beside your Model M and judge them cold. That's a tough comparison for MX. Though they ought to win on noise saving!

I'd be remiss not to mention Topre. Expensive but so tactile, supple, and quiet. Try signing up for the Realforce Tour in the Try Before You Buy section. They must be felt in person. They come with nice caps as standard, which helps. Not nearly as much customisation out there as MX, on any other switch.

[guk]

Don't judge MX so harshly when there are so many switches out there which are way worse. And if you like linears, vintage blacks are among the best, iirc you were quite fond of your single nixdorf black yourself. :p

Imho you might want to add at least clears to your list, hrvoje. Their tactility is way more pronounced compared to browns.
Also, don't expect any switches to feel like the buckling springs you're used to. Disappointment almost is for certain, then.

[Muirium]

He doesn't want linear, so I factored it out.

Nixie blacks are pretty damn nice. And MX black and red are decent, if not great switches, specially once you've got the witchdoctor in to fix them with Korean incantations.

But clicky MX, eugh. And tactile? This guy has an IBM. Don't even compare!

[guk]

Yep, I only had the impression that your statement (6.) sounded a bit generalized. The voodoo stuff also works on e.g. clears, at least to a certain degree.

[hrvoje]

Whoa, this is complicated. Blacks, clears, blues, whites.... I was looking at an Apple Extended Keyboard II from ... ramnes, I think. What's it like and how does it compare to IBM? I'm very satisfied with my M, but the better half isn't and cannot sleep with my typing... so, it's kind of a domestic peace issue. I know earplugs would be cheaper, but I think I'd get beaten up if I mentioned it. ))

[Muirium]

Complex, aye. That's what we're about!

An AEK II is very different to a Model M indeed. Nice in its own way. But you really ought to try it. (And it'll need converted unless you've a 20 year old Mac in mind!)

[seebart]

seems like you're looking at too much different stuff at once hrvoje! AEK2 is quiet though. So you wont get beaten up using that.

[hrvoje]

Forgive me for being a little lost



I love this hysteresis curve so much and I guess it will be hard to find in anything else. Why did they had to make it so LOUD?!?!?! ))

[Muirium]

Mwah ha! You think M is loud? Try Model F! And then buckling spring's ancestor: Beamspring. Loud enough to knock down walls! Yet IBM included a solenoid in those boards to click along with you IN CASE YOU NEED MORE NOISE BECAUSE OF ALL THE RACKET.

Brilliant. And so troublesome! Since you mention curves, though, really do try Topre. I love theirs. And they ain't loud. In fact I recently used my HHKB Type-S in a hospital ward at night without any complaint.

[seebart]

Topre is quiet but instead rips large holes in your wallet.

[hrvoje]

I think Topre is out of my league for now, but I'm starting to get curious what all the fuss is about and what justifies that price tag. I'm not emotionally attached to the IBM, I just like how linear it is, up to a point where it sharply breaks and makes contact - it gives good feedback when a key is registered and makes it possible to type fast and accurate. But you all know that already. The only other keyboard I recently tried was Dell AT101W and I wasn't very thrilled.

[seebart]

Alps don't age well and are prone to dust and dirt. I've tried Apls that had seen a lot of action and dirt and they felt horrible. I own NIB Alps and they're worlds apart. So much nicer. So have you tried any Cherry MX?

[hrvoje]

Nope, never got the chance - mechanical keyboards can only be found with gamers around here, and playing pac-man is all of my gaming. ))

How do they feel compared to the M?

[seebart]

I'm no good at describing any switches, and it's probably not going to help you either. Like Mu already said we have the try before you buy tours but I believe you have to be a member to join.

http://deskthority.net/try-f29/the-real ... hilit=tour

http://deskthority.net/try-f29/novatouc ... 10716.html

[hrvoje]

I'll hang around a bit before trying to enter some program like this, because I'm new and you don't usually trust new people with expensive keyboards.

It was a great relief to find this forum, since I always thought I was a bit eccentric for caring so much about keyboard quality, only to learn there are many more people like me. It's easier to be crazy in the looney bin!

[HAL]

Hi,
your story sounds similar to mine: I have used Model M keyboards for 20 years until I discovered DT. I still love them and I use an SSK at work, but there are some other realy great keyboards out there that you might want to consider:
- Any Model F - even better click then a Model M - but as loud.
- A 55g Topre TKL - my other daily driver - I use one at home so I don't wake up my son when typing at night
- A cheaper Topre clone like the Royal Kludge there was one on Massdrop several weeks ago

For the price think about it this way: You easily can use a good keyboard for two years, ~200 work days per year
So if you get a realy expensive keyboard it will cost you 1 €/$ per day.

But be warned, evnetually you will get some other keyboards as well: http://www.zwettler.net/en/keyboards.html at least I did

[zts]

Noise is an issue ... the closest more quiet replacement is Topre RF uniform 55g (maybe too expensive). The second choice is maybe Matias Quiet Click keyboards (Quiet Pro models). Maybe MX browns, handpicked, like in TKLs from FILCO, Varmilo, Leopold, possibly KUL. All of them are expensive. Maybe on ebay you can find something affordable, but in general, it's almost impossible to get the typing feel you are getting from typing on the Model M.

[XMIT]

Try an NMB/HiTek Space Invaders board! Delightfully clicky, really not all that loud.

Only $85 shipped to most of Europe, as long as it's not the UK!

(Please put your country of residence in your profile. )

[Chyros]

If your budget isn't too big, don't buy a new keyboard. Buy an old one instead. This also has the advantage of the keyboard usually being much more sturdily built than their modern counterpart - and you get to pick from much more types of switches.

If your Model M is too loud, don't bother with Cherry MX blue or green switches, they're almost as loud but the sound is extremely annoying. Tactile Cherry switches are much better, but if you want a strong tactility such as in your Model M, pan Cherry switches altogether (they're not very tactile at all).

Alps switches have a delicious sound, but even non-clicky Alps tend to be quite loud and condition of the board is a much bigger worry than with other switches, so you need to find a good board or be prepared to do lots of painstaking cleaning. In terms of feel, Alps are quite versatile, but overall of comparable tactility and stiffness to buckling springs - closer than most other types of switch.

Space invaders is a fairly classic example of relatively quiet clicky switches. I haven't tried them out myself, only linear ones, but they feel very reliable and uniform, and the sound of the clickies I've heard is somewhat high-pitched, but quite pleasant.

Finally Monterey Blues are a very nice type of clicky switch that feels a bit lighter than buckling springs, but feels very delicate and smooth and the clicky noise is very pleasant and not all that loud. Unless you absolutely hammer your keyboard these are a very nice alternative too.

Model Fs are reported to feel and sound much nicer than Model Ms, but it's highly unlikely you'll be able to afford it on your limited budget, and they're still just as loud as well as having a weird layout and old connector.

[hrvoje]

I actually have an ICL branded keyboard stashed somewhere, and it has those funny looking space invaders switches. I don't know if these keyboards came in several versions, but mine isn't clicky at all, so I guess that would be the linear variant? That being said, it really sucks and it was stashed for a reason.

@Chyros - Thanks for the detailed response. So, you would say Alps are most like model M? Which variant? (I learned there are several, easy to make a mistake...)

@HAL - I love your collection, nothing more to say ... especially the SSK model M variants, and the F with the Linux key. Have a big thumbs up!

@Everybody - Thanks!

[Chyros]

@Chyros - Thanks for the detailed response. So, you would say Alps are most like model M? Which variant? (I learned there are several, easy to make a mistake...)

I'd say the closest would be white Alps, which is also probably the most representative (and common) type of Alps switch. Not that they feel identical or anything, for from it, it's just that they feel more like bucking springs than other switches do. Well, Fujitsu Peerless feels more like buckling springs (and is considerably quieter), but that's such a hit-and-miss switch that I really wouldn't recommend them to you (personally I rather dislike them). White Alps are the loudest type of Alps switch, itself a rather loud family of switches though.

Alps made a damped, very quiet version of their switches as well. These were used in the Apple Extended Keyboard II and their design was more or less copied for the Matias Quiet Click switch.

TBH though, the Model M is a great keyboard, and if you want off it it suggests to me that the noise level is a bigger factor than switch feel. And although Alps (IMHO) sound great and feel really nice, for someone who want quiet switches, any Alps switch apart from the damped one I really wouldn't recommend. Just to clarify; is SOME measure of clicky required or can you do without it? Do you requite tactility in your switches, or would you happily type on a linear board? It's really all in how much priority you assign to everything.

I have a whole load of video reviews on the switches I just discussed, and at the end of them there is a typing demonstration with a very simple, but quite sound-representative camera. Have a look at them if you want to compare typing noise (and possibly hear something about the switches and boards themselves):

Alps White:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSARLlM4Pc0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZpCZNh6jG8
Alps Cream (damped):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDMQH-EoCK8
Fujitsu Peerless:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBbaOXe4-Sk
Model M (for comparison to the others):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9LcLgcCmus

[XMIT]

I wouldn't discount 55g Topre or Cherry MX Clear. Those are my go to post-Model M boards. Heavy and tactile just like the Model M.

[Chyros]

I wouldn't discount 55g Topre or Cherry MX Clear. Those are my go to post-Model M boards. Heavy and tactile just like the Model M.

He has a fairly low budget, though xD .

[fohat]

the better half isn't and cannot sleep with my typing

The instant free improvement is a vibration barrier between keyboard and desk.

There are many ways to do it, but start by folding a thick towel and listening to what 2-3 thicknesses of fabric can do.

[Muirium]

Also typing on your lap. That's the difference between a clacky spacebar and supernatural ninja silence for my HHKB Type-S. Not so comprehensively effective on clicky switches though, but still worth a shot.

Oh boy, every switch type is showing up on this thread now. What have we become!

Model F is so much louder than Model M in my experience (and I've multiple boards of both) that whoever objects to your M is going to have to escalate matters if you're nutty enough to switch to one of those. Maybe better wrap some of that towelling Fohat mentioned around the nearest fire extinguisher and similar assault weapons…

[seebart]

If he got a Model F he could also use that as a weapon / shield in defence. Forget the towel.

[Muirium]

For a change, I'm advocating *non*-violence. But sure, either works…

Back to kinda sorta answering the question, quiet tactility is one of those complex quests in keyboarding where there's as many different opinions as there are people who have tried. My favourite is Topre, natch, and following behind is classic damped complicated Alps like in the AEK II. I recently had my first go at damped tactile Matias switches and was unimpressed. And my opinion of MX brown and clear is widely known. (Gah!!)

But these are just my tastes. There is no substitute to trying for yourself. You can research the pros and cons of various boards (such as the fact the AEK II isn't nearly as well built as a Realforce, and is an awkward bugger to use in this day and age) but as for actual feel: your fingers alone can know.