Realforce 87u first review (use time: 1 hour)

[hrvoje]

My dear model M was seriously unacceptable for use at night, and after being threatened with sharp pointy objects, I got myself a Realforce 87u through forum classifieds. If my gf asks you, it cost 30$. Ok?

Here are my first impressions after owning it for an hour.

For somebody used to large vintage keyboards, this looks like a child's toy. I'm not missing the numeric keyboard, only the right enter, but that's something you can easily get used to.

It's quiet. It's heavy enough and will not move on your desk. It's really not what I'm used to, but I'll give it a few days and see if it will grow on me. It feels nice when bottoming the key because the bump feels like plastic hitting rubber and it makes a nice "clock" and a pleasant sound. There isn't a precise distinction or "feel" where the switch actuates.

There is some tactile feedback. It's apparently given by collapsing rubber dome (when pressing the key slowly) and the bump you feel when bottoming the key. If you try typing very slowly and gently pressing the keys, it feels more like an ordinary rubber dome. When you enter the superhero typist mode and turn the dial over 80 wpm, it starts feeling much better because the sound is OCD-ishly pleasing and the feedback is much better. Coming from a buckling springs keyboard, the keys feel much more mushy and rubbery.

Keys with stabilizers sound more mechanical and produce a nice sound when you abruptly lift your finger. All in all, it feels like a nice, high end keyboard. I will certainly try it for a while, and If I end up not liking it, it will have to go.

Oh and, I got 101 WPM on a test with a model M and 105 with a RF, after only 1 hour of adjustment. Much easier to make mistakes with the Realforce. Maybe because the keys are way lighter?

Interesting.

[seebart]

If my gf asks you, it cost 30$. Ok?

Aha right.

For somebody used to large vintage keyboards, this looks like a child's toy.

We're in the same boat. Regading the switch feel I would mostly agree. Topre's got a very refined feel that has great potential for growing on me. For myself it only comes to play when plate mounted. I could not get really get comfortable with the HHKB. The FC66C on the other hand works much better for me. I need to get a 55g RF in the long run. My YA11B0 88UB variable is fine but I like the feel of my 45g uniform FC660C better.

[Muirium]

I'd agree with all this if you were talking about a Model F, but Model M? Come on! I think you need to find out what a real clicky keyboard is like, and judge based on that bar instead!

The M's okay, but the F is sharper, built better, and so much louder. You want that, right?

Anyway, I like my TKL Realforce about the same as I do my Model M SSK. They're both fantastic. Although today I'm being spoiled by typing on Round 5 caps on my newly damped NovaTouch here that finally feels like a real Topre. Better get out the Kishsaver and pull myself back to the blue side soon!

[seebart]

Ahmm he's mainly talking about his Realforce Mu! Plus he got threatened for using his M at night so F might get him killed!

[Muirium]

I know. I'm kidding about the noise. An F is just insanely loud. Though they are noticeably nicer than Ms, as I'm sure you know.

But I'd give the Realforce more time. In pure feel, I much prefer them to Model M. It's a different feel, of course. And switches are just the kind of thing we can disagree about forever.

[seebart]

Absolutely. I'd go even further. After using my FC660C for the last week I'd say it's a strech comparing Topre to any Model M let alone F. So different to the core. Both keyboards, that's it.

[Muirium]

Exactly. That's why I keep using them both. Sometimes I want sharp, crystal clarity with a chorus of clicks. Other times, I want that smooth flow I get from oneness with cup rubber!

I'm pretty close to the perfect clicky and the perfect tactile keyboard now, I think. Linears are the missing piece.

[hrvoje]

I'm still seriously curious about the model F, and even beam spring. IBM made some very interesting technical solutions, too bad it's so damn loud and hard on the fingers. I'd even live with finger strain if there was some good, reliable way to silence them and not ruin them along the way.

I was always confused why nobody beside me cared that much about their keyboards, since many jobs require all-day typing. Funny!

[Muirium]

To feed your curiosity: the Model F is lighter than Model M for sure. Beamspring is too, but feels quite different to either of them thanks to that swing it has, which reminds me a lot of Topre. Beamspring's more or less the combination of both my favourite later switch types. It has the sharp, clicky precision of Model F, and it has the S-curved tactility of Topre too. It's an amazing switch. And physically massive, available only in seriously vintage keyboards.

Model F is the sensible one to try when you can. I'd go for an AT. They're the most flexible of all IBM boards. For example, here's a before and after shot of mine:





With a bit more work, they can even go full ANSI or ISO, with a bottom row like your Model M:

[hrvoje]

These look so awesome! I remember seeing them around several times as a kid, but they disappeared since. Everybody who still has one of these keyboards gave me the same answer - you could only pry them from my cold, dead hands.

I formulated the "law of keyboards" - you could have them tactile, quiet and cheap. Pick any two.

[chzel]

Nah, there are millions of quiet tactile cheap rubber dome keyboards! They feel like crap, but they have all three "qualities"!

[Muirium]

Aye. Loudness is typically a premium!

By the way: Model F, like my AT there, is significantly louder than Model M. Here's some videos to show what I mean. Both shot with the same microphone etc.

IBM Model M SSK:

IBM Model F 4704 "Kishsaver":

The AT sounds a bit less crazy than the full metal jacket Kishsaver, but it's still louder than a Model M. I need to make some more of these videos.

Here's another clicky favourite of mine that's actually quite easy on the ears, while still having a lot of tactility and a click…

NMB RT102 with "black space invaders":

Space invaders aren't that hard to get hold of, but the layouts are stuck in the era of the IBM AT, without the customisability. I'm still searching for an ANSI one.

[hrvoje]

Damn, those are nice - both the SSK and the F.

Do you only use them occasionally or as a daily driver? I'm beginning to like this Topre, it's different. A little mushy, but still somehow satisfying to type on. A 55g, much quieter model F would be the one keyboard to rule them all. I'm constantly asking around if anybody has one stashed in some warehouse or selling them as surplus, but they are long gone, and it's quite sad when you think about it. It's supposed to have lighter keys than the M, since you have both can you confirm this?

[chzel]

They are indeed lighter. It's a more "joyful" feel, a happy loud pingy "click", whereas M is more "serious" - more composed click.

[Muirium]

Model Fs aren't that hard to come by. You can definitely get one if you're determined and have a bit of patience. You could do worse than posting a WTB thread right in the DT marketplace for an IBM AT keyboard.

But they are loud! More annoying to other people nearby, too, because of all that pinging!

I use quite a lot of keyboards regularly. I'd actually half given up on the NovaTouch before these silencing rings came along. The noisy IBMs are no problem for me. In fact I prefer them for when I really need to get busy. Topres work best later in the day, when I need a rest but still have more to do. They're the kind of keyboard you want deep into a project.

[klikkyklik]

I have a 55g 87U and I like it a lot, but that sure as hell isn't going to stop me from finding a Model F that Muirium unknowingly made me lust after.

I remember typing on a Model F on an original IBM PC back in 1984 or thereabouts, and if my muscle memory isn't lying to me, it was significantly more satisfying than typing on an M, but I've lost a lot of brain cells since then.

[Khers]

Even if you have lost brain cells, your muscle memory is correct . F is indeed more satisfying than M.

[Muirium]

Yep. The reason my SSK is still a champion (while I ignore my other couple of Model Ms completely) is because of its size and layout. They may be mere Ms, but SSKs are still amazing. Well, for those of us who consider TKL as the largest size that's practical for daily use!

As for Fs: the AT is the winner. Unless you truly want a huge board, in which case the F122 battleship is worth a look. There's a nice sensible SSK layout buried in there somewhere!

[hrvoje]

I am beginning to really like this Realforce, but I also wouldn't mind owning a model F. Perhaps a stroke of genius will hit me and I'll think of a way to silence it properly. Model M is much quieter at night when sitting on a towel, maybe F will have a trick as well.

An SSK also sounds awesome, I've never even seen one. Too bad there are so few around...

[klikkyklik]

The original F board has a wonky layout, but I'm concerned that the AT or F122 might not sound the same. I assume the keyswitch mechanism is the same, but my concern is keycaps (thickness) and whether they are going to feel/sound as good as the 5150. Thoughts?

hrvoje, it sounds like we're in the same boat, enjoying the 87U but now also wanting an F! However, for me, the louder the better.

[Muirium]

I've got an XT (the original IBM PC keyboard), an AT and a Kishsaver. All Model F, and all very similar sound and feel. The XT is a bit tougher, and a touch more fulsome in sound and sharp in feel, but the difference is minor compared to the gulf between all three and a Model M. Besides, the Kishsaver is the best of the three with its full metal case!

Andy recently talked a Model F newb into getting an XT, for the supposedly superior feel. I'll dig up the thread. The reality turned out to be quite different from expectation!

http://deskthority.net/keyboards-f2/whi ... ml#p243500

The XT is a nicely built board with great caps and excellent feel, but its layout is firmly stuck in 1981. The AT has a lot more tricks to play, and is so close in feel you're missing out on nothing.

[klikkyklik]

Yes, if you can find the thread I'd certainly like to give it a read.

p.s. You are a bad influence.

[Muirium]

Bad influence, who, me? I'm just an enabler! Anyway, I edited the post. Check it out. The whole thread is worth a read.


Re: loudness. Damping under the keyboard always helps. Typing on my lap is forever quieter than at my desk. Sound is vibration, after all.

Technically, I have 3 SSKs, which is one more than I can easily excuse! Once Phosphorglow ships me his second controller, I might well sell one.

[hrvoje]

I even placed a pad of paper under the Relaforce, it's more silent and doesn't resonate so much. Maybe some liquid rubber would go well with the model F and not interfere with normal keyboard operation? I also never noticed how much force is actually necessary to press a key on the IBM, feels like they were made for construction workers.

But that click is so pleasing when it buckles you could keep a person with OCD busy for a week.

[klikkyklik]

I always use a dust rag or towel under the keyboards on my desk- it greatly improves the sound experience for me.

Thanks for the thread link, Muirium.

My quest is for an AT. Much friendlier layout, and considering I want to use the board more than just own it or look at it, that's pretty important. Also, it doesn't need a Soarer's converter to operate - another plus.

[andrewjoy]

i use a super long mousepad from ebay that is long enough for a 107 + mouse

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Extra-Large-S ... 3ce960dcdd

dampens sound very well, i think i need a new one mine is a bit dirty

[zslane]

The lovely thing about today's better mechanical boards, like the Filcos, is that even the full 104/105 boards have a substantially reduced footprint compared to the aircraft carriers of the past (the AEK I/II wasn't nicknamed "Saratoga" for nothing). There's no need to ditch the numpad just to keep a polite footprint anymore. TKL and 60% boards look and feel like toys to me; sort of like the training bras of typing devices.

[Muirium]

Bollocks! Fullsize keyboards are still too big — my big bulky Model M SSK is a good few centimetres less wide than the very modern looking Cherry MX Board 6.0 and beats the living shit out of it for feel — then you forget about the vile asymmetry…

I can just about forgive a navigation cluster tacked on the right of a board, but a numpad I never use? Put it on the fucking left, guys! Why all the reaching?

[klikkyklik]

I found with the 87U a realization that I use the numpad more than I thought while programming. I can see the attraction to smaller boards for straight typing, but I personally wouldn't use something like the HHKB for programming - I don't think I would be tolerant to the slowdowns it forces.

Not sure what's up with the space issues people have either. Are everyone's desks smaller these days, or... ?

[Muirium]

Here's the key: I insist on having the centreline of my screen, keyboard, and indeed myself line up. I get a sore neck and such if I try otherwise for long. A TKL is just small enough that I don't notice the discrepancy between the 60%'s midline being a few keys further left of the overall keyboard. But a fullsize does throw me off, and I have to shift the whole board to the right so I can home correctly. That pushes even my Magic Trackpad right off the edge of my standing desk. Let alone any chance of using a mouse over there!

So when I use a fullsize keyboard (usually my old AT or the black Space Invader board I like a lot as well) I have to mouse with the left hand. Which is a good change to make, for ergonomics' sake. But with a TKL or a 60% I'm free to change sides whenever I like.

Don't even get me started on lap typing. I really can't do that on a fullsize at all, it has to jut out so far to the right! And TKLs also sit nicely on top of my 15" laptop when I'm in the mood for that.