Designing the next Topre keycap set

[002]

looks like 90 degrees wrong?
Oh wait... that one is horizontal isn't it? No...that should be fine actually. Weird!

But yeah the left Control on an 87U has always been wobbly as hell, and you can see that the ridges inside the slider that hold the cap on are two separate little walls. I am not sure why they do this but it feels crap compared to the normal slider design. They use an even worse design on mods on older Topre boards with little tiny pegs that seem to bend very easily. Haven't broken one yet though.../touch wood

[Muirium]

Oh for the love of duck…

IMG_0317.JPG (467.19 KiB) Viewed 4670 times

Left Control — HHKB Alt / Option — Right Control

I'm glad you spotted that 90º rotated mount, because this is just the kind of thing I don't. (If it looks symmetrical, I don't notice.)

We're going to need a whole extra Control key just to suit the TKLs, aren't we?

Anyway, I'll spin that slider 180º when I've next got the Realforce open. But not 90º!

[Hypersphere]

@Muirium: You will need to look at the slider from the back, which, unfortunately, means that you will need to open it up again. I think you will need to rotate the slider to its correct orientation.

Pop the cap off the Right Ctrl and you will see that the slider has a different design from that of the Left Ctrl, and the inside ridges are horizontal on the Right and vertical on the Left.

[002]

We're going to need a whole extra Control key just to suit the TKLs, aren't we?

Yes
The keycap sets that Topre produce contain a single windowed 'Control' key with the horizontal mount stem. It also contains the normal vertical one for standard Realforce. I am pretty sure that this horizontal mount 'Control' is unique to the *87*, and not the other TKL Realforce boards (86, 88, 89, 91).

[matt3o]

since someone asked... the new black spacebars are as close as we can get.



I have 100 available for follew Europeans.

[002]

Nice one, Matt!
Looks pretty good from that angle

[matt3o]

the difference was noticeable with the previous one, this time you really need to look close.

[scottc]

Looks good to me! I'm looking forward to getting my four.

I have two black HHKBs and only one black spacebar, so out of curiosity... how much would it be to get one of these shipped to the UK or Ireland?

[Khers]

Even though I can't really say I see too much in that pic, I think it looks good! What about the others? Are they as close to the colours you were aiming for?

Really looking forward to finally being able to put these on my Topres!

[matt3o]

please do not derail from the original topic I can open a new thread about the spacebars, actually I could put them on sale, but I have to buy 100+ bubble wraps

[Hypersphere]

I rather like the design of the Penumbra set:

penumbra-sa.jpg (103.47 KiB) Viewed 4567 times

Among the designs that matt3o has shown us thus far, I am not highly enthusiastic about any of them, but the one I like the most is the following:

zhrTyRl.jpg (170.23 KiB) Viewed 4567 times

The second one above might be improved by using a lighter background for the mods so that the legends would be clearly legible. Otherwise, I would prefer blanks.

Will there be an option to have the Backtick/Tilde and the Backslash/Pipe caps the same color as the mods in order to provide more color symmetry on the board?

[Muirium]

I asked about mod coloured backtick and backslash right back on page one. He'll try his best! But you must remember this is Topre's set, and I expect they'll nix it.

I'm against mixing printed keys with blanks. And I think Matteo already said Topre refused to consider blanks earlier in the thread.

As for colour schemes, I'm pretty stoked about both the Olivetti and Red Alert options, as well as Honeywell. The latter would need quite pale mods to really work, though. Don't let Topre make their usual mistake with invisible black on black legends Matt!

[Muirium]

We're going to need a whole extra Control key just to suit the TKLs, aren't we?

Yes
The keycap sets that Topre produce contain a single windowed 'Control' key with the horizontal mount stem. It also contains the normal vertical one for standard Realforce. I am pretty sure that this horizontal mount 'Control' is unique to the *87*, and not the other TKL Realforce boards (86, 88, 89, 91).

Juh? What are those mad bastards playing at? It's not even on the 88U?

Goes to Keyboardco - Europe's excruciatingly expensive exclusive Topre dealer - and sees £192 inc. tax ($300!) Realforce 88U in stock, and not even white version listed. Glad I didn't buy here! Anyway, here's the picture I was looking for:



No LED windows in sight. On first Caps Lock, secondary Caps Lock, or even Num Lock for the integrated numpad. What the fuck?

Now available for the first time and exclusively produced for The Keyboard Company, the Topre Realforce88UB keyboard, in United Kingdom layout, is a joy to type on. It incorporates Topre's patented 30 million key life cycle non-contact electrostatic capacitance switches with a switch weight of 45g. The subtle black on black keycaps with their tactile feel and N Key Rollover ensure fast and accurate input.

Included are yellow with black print W, A, S and D keys, a key puller and 4 key collars (used to disable keys).

Subtle black on black, I like that! But apparently the lock lights are just as black too. Weird. Do 88Us even have an integrated number pad? I assume they do, but my Topre assumptions are looking dodgy now!

Quite why they put the LED at the left of the Control key on the 87U when it's at the traditional right end of Caps Lock, I do not know. Right mysterious these Topres!

[seebart]

Hmm...I'm typing on my 88UB YA11B0 right now. No caps lock LED in sight! Or any LED for that matter.

Do 88Us even have an integrated number pad? I assume they do, but my Topre assumptions are looking dodgy now!

They do? I'm a little dazed and confused right now!

[Muirium]

You have an 88U? Go on, try the numpad mode. Does it exist?

[seebart]

Tell me how boss...

[Muirium]

Fun fact: it doesn't work on the Mac. So I'm not sure! But it involves that middle key of the top 3 cluster. Press it to toggle numpad on/off, or maybe with shift if that doesn't work. U should become 4, I 5, J 1 etc.

[seebart]

I tried all combinations, nothing! No num-pad mode here. Unless it's some obscure key combo involving three keys.

[Muirium]

Thanks for trying. So long as you're on Windows, I think that just about proves it: Topre disabled the integrated numpad on the 88UB, to match the missing LED! Anyone here know otherwise?

Of course, they couldn't have disabled Caps Lock just to match this madness, could they…?

Does the 88U lack DIP switches too? (Flip the keyboard over and see if there's an opening with a line of switches exposed.) My 87U has 4 of them, as well as 2 keys with integrated LEDs, and came with swappable windowed Control and Caps Lock caps, instead of multicoloured WASDs.



Fine, so I don't like Caps Lock, Num Lock doesn't even work on OS X (while my SSK does just fine because it sends numpad codes instead…), and blue LEDs aren't my thing anyway; but I still feel like the 88U is a bad deal ditching all of those features. Especially at Keyboardco price, grumble…

[seebart]

Does the 88U lack DIP switches too?

Yes it does. No DIP switches present. Needs to be updated on our wiki too:

http://deskthority.net/wiki/Topre_Realforce

Unbenannt.PNG (6.01 KiB) Viewed 4468 times

Bad deal? Nah, it's pure RF without the extras! Blue LED's are for kids. This one I'm typing on now is the one I traded my HHKB2 for. Yep, Keyboard Co is pricey! This is a better deal:

http://www.ebay.de/itm/TOPRE-NG0100-REA ... 3aa613548f

[Muirium]

Yeah, the wiki confirms it: no integrated numpad on the 88U! Glad I dodged that unseen ISO bullet.

I don't actually use the LEDs on my 87U because I disable Caps Lock, but Num Lock would be a nice treat from time to time. If only the board did it the platform independent way IBM's own SSK does!

[Hypersphere]

I recall getting the embedded numeric keypad on my RF87ub55 to work with my Mac. I think I did some remapping with Karabiner to get it going, including illuminating the numpad LED. However, I know nothing about the 88u.

BTW, I have finally gone over to the dark side. I am now running Windows 8.1 Enterprise as my primary OS, and I plan to upgrade to Windows 10 Enterprise when the university makes it available. I still run Linux as well (Linux Mint 17.2 64-bit Xfce), but OS X has almost vanished except that I am running Windows on my Mac machines via Bootcamp. Although I prefer the Mac/Unix environment to Windows, I had become quite frustrated by the fact that most software is being developed for Windows. Mac versions were becoming an afterthought with fewer features than the Windows counterparts or being dropped altogether. However, I am keeping my keyboards mapped to a HHKB/OS X layout, and I shun Windows keys whenever possible.

@Mu: I am aware that I am recommending things that you suggested previously, but I figured that I should add my vote to the tally. We are often in agreement on things. However, unlike you, I like the look of blank mods with printed alphas. What doesn't makes sense to me is the nearly invisible black on dark gray legends that Topre uses on their black RF keyboards. If they are going to have legends, they should be clearly visible.

In any event, I hope that the final choice for this special edition Topre keycap set will be something distinctive, yet rooted in the classics. I think I could be okay with Olivetti or Honeywell, and maybe even Red Alert. I have some yellow, orange, and red Topre caps, and while I don't particularly like yellow or orange on a black RF, red looks good (at least in small doses, such as one or two accent keys).

[seebart]

Does matt3o have total free hand in this? Does he "have to get it past" Topre before production?

[Muirium]

No. Yes.

I recall getting the embedded numeric keypad on my RF87ub55 to work with my Mac. I think I did some remapping with Karabiner to get it going, including illuminating the numpad LED.

Karabiner can do it. But I don't like Karabiner. The interface is awful, and I like to run as close to stock anyway. Besides its UI, Karabiner's a replacement keyboard driver, intercepting everything from the board before it reaches the OS. That's just the kind of software that gets flaky when Apple updates things. Microsoft is indeed much friendlier to hack providers! I don't need Karabiner enough to bother with it. I've few USB boards, and all the rest are programmable. The HHKB is near perfect and the 87U is only missing that integrated numpad, which is pretty secondary as Topre seems to think too by dropping it entirely on the 88U!

[Hypersphere]

Karabiner is one of the few things I really miss about using OS X as my primary computing platform. It takes a bit of time to get accustomed to it, but once you "get it", it is really quite easy to use. Moreover, I never had any problems with it, including OS X upgrades or anything else.

After recently shifting to Windows, I had trouble locating a good remapping program. Everyone recommends AutoHotKey (AHK), but I found it difficult to use. I stumbled upon a commercial product, ATNsoft Key Manager, which is wonderful, and unlike many remapping programs for Windows, it does not make changes to the Windows registry. It can be a bit pricey, but ATNsoft has some options for getting Key Manager for free, including agreeing to write comments or reviews (I did this and was given 3 free business licenses). As with Karabiner, Key Manager enables you to store profiles for various keyboards, and you can switch from one profile to another without rebooting.

However, most of the time these days I am using my HHKB, for which I need no remapping!

[cookie]

after changing a dip-switch position you have to re plug the device.
Have you tried that?

[Muirium]

You talking to me?

The 87U's virtual numpad is 100% not supported by the Mac. And I know about the dip switches being scanned only at power up. The Realforce just does it the wrong way. Num Lock is ignored on the Mac. It sees it, but ignores it. Because those Numpad navigation legends that PC keyboards have had since 1981 aren't relevant beyond that platform. Topre should have made the integrated numpad send the keycodes for Num_1 etc. like IBM did on the SSK, and I do on my vintage boards and customs. That works everywhere. But no.

[seebart]

Seems that Topre doesn't give a shit about apple.

[Muirium]

Of course they don't. Just look at those dome keys. We've got the HHKB thankfully. Which is a perfect Mac keyboard. So long as you're right and love 60%.

Alas, Topre doesn't give much of a good turd about their keycap buying fans either. Or Matteo would not have such tight constraints on him in this GB. Topre refusing to even consider HHKB compatibility is desperately dumb of them. And I've got to assume ISO isn't coming soon, certainly not in the languages we desire here.

Money. On the table. Want it? I mean, Noppoo is sniffing around your door, guys, and they'd love nothing more than to wipe you out of the keyboard business. You sure you want to tell us get lost when we come, wallets open?

[seebart]

Yeah I never understood Topre's approach either. No official distribution outisde Japan? Am I missing something here?