Noppoo tease a very familiar capacitive switch design

[zslane]

Moreover, the PBT is delightful to touch, and the dye sublimation is beautiful to behold.

To each their own, right? About the only thing I admire about PBT is its thickness/durability (which includes its resistance to yellowing over time). Dyesub will always be inferior to double- (and triple-) shot in my eyes. Plus, PBT tends to have a rather rough surface texture, and I prefer the smooth feel of semi-gloss/smooth-matte. Combine all that with the fact that you won't find SA-family keycaps in PBT and you have a material that has virtually nothing to offer me.

I know that at least one vendor (is it Vortex?) out there has begun making PBT double-shots lately. If they were to provide SA-family double-shots with a smooth matte finish and a variety of colors like SP does, then they'd really have something worthy of my attention. Until then, PBT will continue to crawl way below my keycap radar (along with all the integrated keyboards out there that try to list PBT keycaps as a selling point).

[Khers]

I'll just repeat what davkol said:

HiPro

[002]

PBT is only a selling point if you do it properly. For the most part, Topre do.
A perfect example of crappy PBT caps are on this very Noppoo keyboard. SA would have to be the nicest of SP's offerings and I thought even they were not consistent in quality?

[Hypersphere]

PBT is only a selling point if you do it properly. For the most part, Topre do.
A perfect example of crappy PBT caps are on this very Noppoo keyboard. SA would have to be the nicest of SP's offerings and I thought even they were not consistent in quality?

Agreed. I've tried some very poor PBT caps -- including some dye-sub and double-shot. Topre makes a first-rate product, as did IBM.

[zslane]

Usually the keycaps provided on any keyboard is irrelevent to me since I plan to swap them with my own SA's anyway. I'd prefer to buy barebones boards, but only WASD seems to do that and they don't offer their boards in white.

The HiPro is a neat idea, but again, the so-called added value of the keycaps is wasted on me since I would replace them immediately (I have Round 5a colorways I plan to explore, and All Grey is not one of them). Was it available in a white case as well as black? Also, I couldn't tell from the video review if the USB cable was detachable or not. Moreover, the lack of uniform 1.25U modifiers on the bottom row would have me sifting through all my keycaps, hoping to find what I want in 1U and 1.5U.

In any event, I suppose that HiPro keyboard is great if (a) you like the limited color options, (b) don't ever care to put on SA-family keycaps of your own that have MX mounts, and (c) managed to get in on the MassDrop in time. I love the sound, and would probably love the feel, of Topre switches, but they are used in keyboard products that miss the mark with me in too many other ways.

[Hypersphere]

I've discovered that the CM Novatouch seems to do better with higher profile key caps. For this reason, I am acquiring some sets in OEM profile, and I am looking into SA. Unfortunately, the SA caps are only available in ABS and I prefer PBT. (To each his own).

[Muirium]

Let's just say I wouldn't turn my nose up at one of these…



PBT's hard to sniff at. I'm on my Granite NovaTouch again just now and it's a wonderful feeling, sounding and looking board now that it's damped. Doubleshot is the supreme process for colour choice, but dyesub can be equally as magnificent when done right. With the benefits of allowing whatever glyphs and combinations you like, and on my favourite feeling plastic.

[zslane]

The NovaTouch sounds like a great idea; I guess that's why Nappoo is copying it. But CM only makes it in the TKL form factor and I'm a full ANSI kinda guy. Seeing as how the favored size of mechanical keyboards seems to be shrinking more and more every year, I feel like I should start stockpiling 104-key boards now before they become extinct.

As for keycap profiles, I think the whole SA-style keycap thing is very much a personal preference thing. Most folks probably couldn't care less about SA, and I get that. They are kind of "retro", and not everyone likes retro. The OEM profile presents a relentlessly mundane aesthetic to my eyes and fingers, and once I learned about SAs (and DSAs) and discovered they were obtainable (in colorways I really, really liked no less), I found myself falling into a "never again OEM/DCS" mindset. Consequently, PBT is an easy thing for me to sacrifice in the pursuit of SA-family keycaps, no matter how durable or "solid" they may feel. And the fact that double-shot legends are so much more common in ABS than PBT sort of puts the final nail in PBT's proverbial coffin for me.

At the end of the day, keyboards to me are really just a platform upon which to put my (future) SA keycaps. Most other considerations are secondary. I am probably the only person here with that perspective, but that's okay. I'm not looking for validation, just peace, love, and understanding (and full ANSI, hybrid-Topre boards in both black and white).

[Khers]

Just a quick comment, zslane, from what you write I gather that you don't have any Signature Plastics SA caps, am I right? I would say that you have very strong opinions for never having tried what you are debating. Sure your prefered keycap profile is a matter of personal taste and what not, but I would say that while it sure involves aesthetics, that should not be the main decider - how comfortable they are to you should.

Though I like typing on SA, I don't care too much about any of Signature Plastics keycap profiles anymore, partly because I enjoy Topre's switches and keycaps better and partly because SP have som quality issues I'm not particularly fond of. SA sure look pretty, something I get reminded of constantly with all of the Round 5 stuff that is posted at the moment, but there is a reason why out of the two sets of SA I've bought, I've sold one and the other is kept in storage.

The HiPro however, especially the Just Systems one linked above, does have my attention though. Topre switches, PBT and a sculpted spherical profile... Too bad it's only available in full size (which I loathe) and only readily available with gray keycaps.

[zslane]

You are quite right, Khers. I do not have any of SP's SA keycaps yet (only their DSA Dolch set which I happen to like very, very much). I am essentially basing my expectations on past experiences (very formative ones, I might add) with the SA profile on other keyboards, primarily the kind that would today be considered vintage/antique originals. I am also quite familiar with the profile thanks to "Hank", my IBM Selectric II. Are those keycaps identical to SP's? Of course not, but I don't expect to find them so disappointing that I will go back to typing on OEM/DCS profile keycaps just to have genuine Topre switches under my fingers.

[cookie]

You Sir are definately looking for a HiPro!

[Muirium]

I concur. That old Topre magic is strong. My Realforce and HHKB are both right at the top of my collection, easily recommended as best boards.

But I know the power of advocacy for something you don't already own, too. In fact, I was up to a spot of it back in my early days at DT, triggering this little inter-forum spat:

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44015.0

Shiva was right: I was hot on the HHKB's superiority over the Poker, despite the fact I had neither! Amusing to me, when I did finally get an HHKB, I loved it just as much as I always reckoned I would, and Shiva eventually became an IBM and Topre snob just as much as me! I based my opinions on other people's input. I like to think I'm pretty good at figuring out people's biases, and navigating my way to something approaching objectivity. But the proof is always in the actual hardware, which must be in your hands for you to ever know.

Beamspring caps are quite like SA. Selectric II caps are likely just the same. I prefer IBM's for a number of details — they're far more toothy than SA, which is a bit flat on top in comparison — but they're in the same ballpark for sure. So you've got a pretty good model for what to expect. More so than I did for the HHKB, which was a lot of trust in comparative opinions.

But yeah, those HiPros are a touch of class above even a damped (as in bearable!) NovaTouch kitted out in Round 5. PBT adds a certain flavour of sound to the thock, and the construction quality of my Realforce is a good way ahead of my NovaTouch, especially in the outside case. I've played very briefly with a HiPro at a keyboard meet in San Francisco and it didn't fail to meet my high expectations. The day they do the buggers in TKL is when I get serious about grabbing one myself.

[cookie]

I'd like to know where the love for High Profile caps comes from?
I was never fortunate enough to type on such caps but they look instinctively appealing to me and I am curios how they feel ever since!

My main problem is that I currenlty have no solid base to fit such caps onto nor I have the posibility to equip my beloved HHKBs with such caps
That HiPro from JustSystems for example is instantly appealing to me

I rarely see people dislike these caps!

[Muirium]

I think a lot of people just never consider them. And there's definitely some people who get some SAs and sell them on pretty quickly because they didn't like the feel. I think DanielT was like that, and he knows caps.

Tall caps are definitely different. They're like the 60% form factor, or indeed Topre switches. Not for everyone, but some of us go nuts.

You're going to have to try them too, you know.

By the way, I kinda fell out with flat spherical DSA profile for a while. But I've just gotten right back into them lately with my damped NovaTouch. Low caps really expose the feel of the switch. I can put up with tall SA on MX switches much more easily than these low DSAs. Same with the rattly NovaTouch before Hyper's full set of damping rings fixed this board right up! Tall caps make switches feel lighter, and the tactile bumps on MX switches feel a bit nicer than they really are. Low DSAs, oof! You feel every bit of the switch in great detail. Fortunately, that works just great on Topre, even in the NovaTouch; but only with a safe amount of damping.

[zslane]

There is just something about spherical tops that feel as though the keys are making love to my fingers. I just gotta have them. I like the high profile sculpted aspect of OEM/DCS keycaps, but I can't abide cylindrical tops anymore. Once you go spherical, you can never go back. At least, that's how it is for me.

If I were a Topre devotee, the Realforce Hi-Pro is mostly what I would look for in a platonic keyboard. Despite the lovely keycap profile, it simply lacks the customizability I require (i.e., experimenting with different colorways using my own keycap sets). And despite it being full ANSI, I'm not sure I love the shape of the case (compare with the Filco Majestouch-2 which I find ideal as enclosures go). Nor the fact that it only comes in black. Oh, and does it have an easily-replaced USB cable?

The feel/sound of the switches may be everyone's primary concern around here, but it takes a back seat to issues of customizability for me. That may change after I've spent long months of typing on my MX-equipped keyboards and find myself casting longing eyes (ears?) towards the Realforce and its Topres. But then again, maybe the hybrid-Topre boards will continue to evolve and close the gap with genuine Topre, giving me the best of both worlds!

[Muirium]

Yeah, I hear where you're coming from. Gotta remember that I came into mechanicals via IBM, so I'm used to bulkier boards, with essentially irreplaceable key caps. Unicomp is there, but everyone's heard my opinion of their legends by now. Unicomp's okay for blanks but I loathe to mix their legends with IBM's, especially on my luxuriously deep Model Fs. Anyway, that made Topre a natural fit for me. I was already used to sacrificing cap selection and modding opportunities for pure key feel. In fact, Topre's good selection of form factors positively spoils me!

But if you're used to making the best out of MX, then yes I can see the other side of the coin.

I am quite enamoured with my NovaTouch again, these days. I'm not kidding about the difference those rings make. I definitely recommend it to anyone with a good selection of MX caps already. It's a hard board for newbs because it really needs further expense to come into its own. But with costly Round 5s — in multiple colours no less — you're already most of the way there.

Without Hyper's rings, it's a decent board with SA. With them, it's a glorious one.

[zslane]

Given my needs, the only thing the NovaTouch has going for it is its hybrid Topres. The board isn't full ANSI and only comes in black. Moreover, I am way too unmotivated/lazy, at this point, to put myself through the tedious process of installing silencing rings myself.

You well know the severe lack of options in the Topre world. If you are a TKL user who loves basic black and does not burn with a desire/need to install MX-mounted keycaps, then Topre boards are like mana from heaven, I'm sure. For myself, I'm leaning towards giving boards like the Noppoo EC108 Pro a try despite being "a mere clone" of the hybrid Topres CM pioneered, simply because it has all the other virtues I'm looking for.

[zslane]

I see that Amazon.com has a white full ANSI Topre Realforce in stock for $269.80. It's nice to see something other than black TKLs for a change...

[Muirium]

Both my Topres are white. I prefer the look of them as well. In fact, EK seems to have a bit of a shortage of anything else!

http://www.elitekeyboards.com/products. ... ards,rf104

TKL is far from unavoidable. In fact, in IBM land, it's a rare treat that commands a fine old price. The NovaTouch is the odd one out in doing TKL first. Usually you full size users get all the luck.

The Noppoo isn't up to much. A bad clone like that as your first "Topre" might put you off these costly domes once and for all. Which could in fact be a good idea, financially!

[zslane]

I see from a google search that there was also a white Realforce Hi-Pro with a variation on the IBM white/gray keycap color scheme. What's the rarity quotient on that one?

[Muirium]

You mean the Just Systems HiPro of my dreams?



It's awkward to buy, but far from impossible. (Japanese proxy service) Tenso could probably handle it. I used them with great success for my HHKB Type-S, bought from Amazon Japan for a great deal less than Elite Keyboards price, all included.

Of course, you'd have to learn to love JIS. Those extra mods! That itty-bitty PBT spacebar! Mercy.

There is another tasty HiPro out there that's the hardest of the bunch to source. It's a Korea-only exclusive for Leopold, the HiPro 104UK:



Not the easiest, let alone the cheapest, thing to get hold of, that one! But I think it is ANSI, which is a plus. Albeit with multilingual Korean + English legends.

[zslane]

Not the easiest, let alone the cheapest, thing to get hold of, that one! But I think it is ANSI, which is a plus. Albeit with multilingual Korean + English legends.

Yeah, that's the one I was referring to. I'm guessing the Hi-Pro is not a big enough seller in general for them to make a straight-up ANSI (US) version in that white color scheme. As distasteful as I find the lack of MX-compatibility to be, such a keyboard might just be tempting enough to get me to spring for one.

[Hypersphere]

@Mu: Agreed. It would be unfortunate to form an opinion of Topre-switch keyboards based on anything but the best products, which many would say are the HHKB Pro 2 or Realforce (either 87U or 104U, black or white).

Some would include the Leopold FC66C in the upper-echelon group of Topre boards, and others might include the budget Topre model, the Type Heaven.

Then there is the NT, a Topre hybrid, and the NT clone made by Noppoo.

It should be borne in mind that the standard-profile RF104 boards are only available in variable weight, which includes 35g switches that some consider too light. The high-profile 104 RF is all-45g, but then one would be dealing with multiple variables when trying to make comparisons. The all-55g boards are only available in the 87U size.

Periodically, I unbox various boards that are outside of the few that I keep in rotation to give them another go. After yet another round of testing, I am thankful to have discovered the models that I return to again and again -- the inner circle consisting of the HHKB Pro 2, RF87ub45, Rf87ub55, and IBM Model F keyboards.

[Muirium]

I've nothing against 45g Topre. It works spectacularly well in the HHKB, and I like the NovaTouch's weight too. I could definitely put up with that in a HiPro, even factoring in the switch weight lightening effect of tall caps. My NovaTouch, and my brief time on a 30g Realforce, convince me that's a nice place to be.

Matteo's one of the Leopold FC660C's fans. And he's tried Realforces and HHKBs for sure. He just parted hands with another HHKB today, no less! The asymmetric look of the Leopold puts me off. But I do reckon it is a very fine board indeed.


@Zslane: Interesting idea. I don't know how long they've been doing the HiPro. 002 told me Topre's been making caps like those since the 1980s, and he has a few really old Topre made boards to prove it. But as for the modern USB Realforce line, I've no idea. It's lame to blame a wiki, but my browser's find function hardly picks up mention of it here:

http://deskthority.net/wiki/Topre_Realforce

2012? Hmm.

Anywho, Topre OEMs those HiPros. The grey is EK's idea. JustSystems and Leopold clearly have better taste! There's nothing to stop Topre from doing a tasty model outside of Asia. They just haven't done it yet.

[zslane]

Anywho, Topre OEMs those HiPros. The grey is EK's idea. JustSystems and Leopold clearly have better taste! There's nothing to stop Topre from doing a tasty model outside of Asia. They just haven't done it yet.

Do I smell a future GB in the air?

[002]

It's lame to blame a wiki, but my browser's find function hardly picks up mention of it here:
http://deskthority.net/wiki/Topre_Realforce

Ohh looks like there's an error on the page
I actually list the major milestones in the History section and I mentioned the Hi-Pro but I've incorrectly suggested the release date was 2013 when a Hi-Pro model was available in Japan in September, 2012.

I'll correct it later (unless someone beats me to it) -- thanks!
Oh and by the way, I am not sure if the dark grey Hi-Pro model was EK's idea. I think it was commissioned and sold by Leopold initially.

[Muirium]

Then I stand entirely corrected! Typical bad luck for us white dyesub lovers that EK chose to run with the wrong one of the two…

There's nothing to stop Topre from doing a tasty model outside of Asia. They just haven't done it yet.

Do I smell a future GB in the air?

Sounds a bit deeper than a group buy. We'd need to have a contact.

Here's the kicker: for a while, a DT regular by the name of Ducky Nordic (aka Kayvee) was in touch with them personally. He was Ducky keyboards distributor for Scandinavia, and a frequent flier to Taiwan. He bumped into them at a trade show there and managed to commission a rather tasty Realforce variant which he sold in small numbers via his usual partners: Teraset in Finland. He was even talking about a uniform 30g Realforce, which would be a first outside Japan.

But then he disappeared. Completely. His thread, which was by then a long standing DT institution, became a wasteland.

So we never heard or saw any more come from that. The fact that Matteo is in touch with Topre now is surely a good thing. He seems to be in a different kind of business relationship, though. Kayvee was a distributor, with contacts in stores across northern Europe, so he could commission stuff. Matteo is a designer, with good contacts of his own but not as commercial. He's working more closely with Topre than Kayvee did, but in a way has less power to actually order stuff up and make things become real.

But we'll see. At least Topre isn't a total black box we can't engage with. Even if they move in mysterious ways…

[Hypersphere]

@Muirium: The FC660C was my first Topre-switch board. I liked its solid feel and thocknicity, but a couple of things motivated me to give it away: the keycaps that were available at the time and the asymmetry. Related to the asymmetry was the placement of the Fn key -- it should have been where the up-arrow was located. With a properly located Fn, the arrow keys and the isolated Insert/Delete keys become superfluous. If it had been a HHKB with a steel plate, I could have put a new set of caps on it and I might never have purchased a HHKB (but of course I would, in order to compare).

I do remain intrigued by the HiPro caps, but I find the standard Topre profile and cylindrical tops to be ideal for me (thus far). I've tried spherical tops via the Granite set, and I have trouble typing on them, but I don't know if the problem resides in the spherical tops or the DSA profile.

Mu -- I thought you were keen on small spacebars. Is it not so?

[Muirium]

Yes, I do. The small spacebar is easily the most appealing feature of a JIS keyboard to me, if I ever go that route. I would like to know how the extra mods show up on OS X, though, when typing English.

DSA is an unusual shape. I'm quite adaptable and find it perfectly adequate on my NovaTouch. But the lack of row profiles (or sculpting, as Signature Plastics puts it) is odd, and is likely what's putting you off. The keys all face upwards, instead of curving towards you. That's a big difference for typing, compared to cylindricals and indeed SA.

[zslane]

The complete lack of native-soil distributors for products like Topre and Filco in the US is puzzling (and frustrating). I'm so used to Japanese tech companies wanting to move in and dominate a market segment here, that they are conspicuous by their absence. I mean, I know we're small compared to the gamer market, but still...this is the US where an embarrassing number of people have cash they want to just throw at companies with good products.