Paris

[seebart]

France has and is taking part in anti isis military operations with the US and other Allies. That's more than enough "asking for it" in the eyes of these terror groups.

[SL89]

I was more objecting to zslane's apologist view that some nations are more deserving of backlash then others. The citizenry of any nation does not 'deserve' any of this bullshit, any more then the people of Syria 'deserve' the unreal amount of bullshit they have to deal with and are fleeing from.

[Muirium]

Sure, they hate us. But it's not for our taste in coffee. It's for who we support in the Middle East. And I'm talking about the big one. A little south of Syria.

[seebart]

Absolutely SL89. These terror groups manage to brainwash young men to a degree they are ready and willing to kill and be killed themselfs. Western military operations are first class fodder for this brainwashing in the name of Islam. And guess what, Hollande is speaking of an act of war on France now. There is our spiral again.

[photekq]

Apologies. I didn't use the politically correct name for those insidious fuckheads. I'm sorry.

(Or I may have mistaken you for someone else in that conspiracy theory thread that occasionally does the rounds here in the off topic section. In which case I'm genuine! That climate change denier stuff just makes me annoyed we didn't include an ability to kick people in the face over the Internet protocol.)

What conspiracy theory thread are you talking about and why is it relevant?

The video that mr_a500 posted has nothing to do with conspiracy theorists. Now, it may be propaganda, but at least unlike most propaganda it does contain real footage - real footage from which conclusions can be drawn. I found it quite stirring.

You can just hear the xenophobic politicians all over Europe licking their slavering chops at the delicious meal of hate to come. Served up by happy terrorists, on a bloody silver plate.

I don't disagree but I do resent the use of 'xenophobic', implying that there is some irrational fear.

Islam isn't about murder, but it is about conquest. I see a lot of people expressing sympathy towards those in France, but then also going on to say that "terrorism has no religion" and that "only 0.01% of Muslims agree with this!". I'm sorry, but those are both wrong. Currently there is no other religion that uses terrorism on a scale anywhere near Islam. Also, I was very surprised by the number of Muslims who have extremists beliefs. These two sources are telling :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7TAAw3oQvg
http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/w ... report.pdf

The video uses the second link as a resource. Now, I believe the video to be biased, so I did not take the numbers stated there to be fact. However, I then looked at the resource, which I believe to be unbiased; I came to find that the numbers were not quite as high, but still shocking.

Those refugees are on the run from the assholes who do terror attacks.

Yeah, the ones from Syria - a minority in the sea of "refugees". Most of them are economic migrants and nothing else.

[seebart]

Yeah, the ones from Syria - a minority in the sea of "refugees". Most of them are economic migrants and nothing else.

You know that for a fact? If the identity of those refugees cannot be established and they have no papers, then you need people who can tell. Difficult. This is one big problem german authorities are having. Sure it's possible, but not srtaight foreward in many cases.

[SL89]

Yeah, the ones from Syria - a minority in the sea of "refugees". Most of them are economic migrants and nothing else.

People say the same things about the South Americans crossing into the US. Do you really think Libya is a good place to raise a family? Or maybe Egypt which is so safe right now.

There are a multitude of issues going on in the arab world that cause people to flee. (Again much like the Ecuadorians and Nicaraguans in North America) and it's a disservice to them all to dismiss their fears and troubles under the guise of 'economic migrants'

People don't drop everything they have and grab their children and run for economic opportunities.

[photekq]

People say the same things about the South Americans crossing into the US. Do you really think Libya is a good place to raise a family? Or maybe Egypt which is so safe right now.

There are a multitude of issues going on in the arab world that cause people to flee. (Again much like the Ecuadorians and Nicaraguans in North America) and it's a disservice to them all to dismiss their fears and troubles under the guise of 'economic migrants'

People don't drop everything they have and grab their children and run for economic opportunities.

Of course. The people fleeing from Syria, Libya, Egypt, etc. have a legitimate reason to do so. They fear for their lives and their family's lives. However, the people fleeing from those countries - the genuine refugees - do not make up the entirety of the people coming into Europe now. Most are economic refugees from other parts of Africa or other parts of the Middle East. They arrive with no passports and claim to be Syrian or Libyan. Also, the vast majority of those coming into Europe do not come with their families. They come as young men, alone.

[seebart]

There are actually also quite a few economic migrants from eastern Europe coming to Germany, this is well known.

[Mr.Bean]

Why the bombing attack in Beirut just day before Paris didn't get that coverage and reaction across the world? Or Russian plane with twice as much people dead, shut down by same people? Or thousands of Palestinians killed by Israeli army in 2014, and still continue to do so.

The death of those people is not that important to our society, because sadly, the majority of it is hypocrite.

There is a good article about this subject worth reading.
https://globalvoices.org/2015/11/14/the ... of-beirut/

[matt3o]

I agree with you, Mr.Bean, but all those people you mentioned were killed in "war zones" or at least places were a certain level of risk is understood. Paris is like your home. It could have happened to any of us.

[seebart]

That's a valid point Mr.Bean. Much of what goes on in the middle east and elsewhere is not present in our mainstream news.

https://theintercept.com

[photekq]

Why the bombing attack in Beirut just day before Paris didn't get that coverage and reaction across the world? Or Russian plane with twice as much people dead, shut down by same people? Or thousands of Palestinians killed by Israeli army in 2014, and still continue to do so.

The death of those people is not that important to our society, because sadly, the majority of it is hypocrite.

There is a good article about this subject worth reading.
https://globalvoices.org/2015/11/14/the ... of-beirut/

It's not hypocrisy. It's because it's closer to home. Of course we're more capable of empathy when it's our own peoples.

Also, of course, popular Western media tends to focus on Western events. It also tends to not report on Israeli atrocities since it is mostly Jewish owned and run - this is the only unjust thing.

[seebart]

Is something like this really going to make all this easier?

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-34823466

[Muirium]

That's the problem with news. It's got to be "new". Surprise is required. So grand stunts like these are the result: custom designed to capture as much media attention as possible, and — Jihadi fingers crossed — to get (yes Photkeq) xenophobes like Marine Le Penn elected to rule as many significant European nations as possible. Fire's gotta burn.

Oddly, we seem to be a bit short of their kind here in Britain. Nige Farage is no scholar of migration or frankly anything beyond the tabloids over an IPA down in the good old Cock & Mouth, but he's not the focussed, vicious kind of racist scumbag you find in most of Europe, a step and a half away from supreme power. We might be the last to play that game. Despite how trigger happy we are to lob around our bombs.

[Findecanor]

Say what you will of tyrants but they did tend to keep the extremist elements within their borders in check. If you are going to topple a tyrant then you should have a very good plan of how to manage the situation or you will find that the wrong people will get their hands on power, money and weapons. The US invasion of Iraq was a very clear example of such a failure.

These days, there are lots of conspiracy theories - especially among people from the Middle East, or so I've heard - about it having been the US that instigated the uprisings in the Arab world starting in 2011. The same uprisings which created the power vacuum that made ISIS able to grow.

These guys, however, are heavily invested in making us hate all Muslims the way we hate these attacks. That is how they will win. When life for all Muslims in Europe is unbearable.

Indeed. I'm afraid that these attacks will serve mostly to create more racism.
There was a recent study in the news a week ago about how ISIS have managed to recruit among immigrants (and their offspring) in the West: most recruits were not motivated by religious fanaticism but by the wish for self-realization, - something that they had seen a very slim prospect for in the European land that they lived in.

The furnace at the heart of it lies in the Holy Land. Where we have no influence at all.

I don't see the Israeli/Palestinian conflict as being too relevant in current events. But we in Europe should have influence if we would stand up for ourselves, speak up and take action each time that Israel is doing something disagreeable. Instead, each time that a European has criticised Israel, Israel in return has accused the critic of being an anti-semite, which have made that person "make like a poodle": roll over and become silent.. If we won't allow ourselves to be so easily moved by that distasteful tactic then we could have more influence over Israel.

Currently there is no other religion that uses terrorism on a scale anywhere near Islam.

Currently, Islam is also the biggest religion in the world. Correlation does not equal causality.

[seebart]

That's the problem with news. It's got to be "new". Surprise is required. So grand stunts like these are the result: custom designed to capture as much media attention as possible, and — Jihadi fingers crossed — to get (yes Photkeq) xenophobes like Marine Le Penn elected to rule as many significant European nations as possible. Fire's gotta burn.

Oddly, we seem to be a bit short of their kind here in Britain. Nige Farage is no scholar of migration or frankly anything beyond the tabloids over an IPA down in the good old Cock & Mouth, but he's not the focussed, vicious kind of racist scumbag you find in most of Europe, a step and a half away from supreme power. We might be the last to play that game. Despite how trigger happy we are to lob around our bombs.

We have right wing(nuts) popping up in Germany recently, real problem being they don't look like the stereotypical nazi hooligan anymore and actually have a brain and can argue their shit persperctive to make it seem sensible to weak minded uneducated individials. Here is one of my favorite new Aholes. This guy would have all non Germans deported by force immediately, gays jailed or killed and other grand ideas.

Tausende-Menschen-demonstrieren-in-Erfurt-gegen-Asylpolitik.jpg (37.75 KiB) Viewed 4958 times

[photekq]

Currently there is no other religion that uses terrorism on a scale anywhere near Islam.

Currently, Islam is also the biggest religion in the world. Correlation does not equal causality.

My statement remains true even once you take into account the sizes of the various religions.

[Mr.Bean]

but all those people you mentioned were killed in "war zones".

This does not make the human life less valuable. Or the pain of losing someone less hurtful.

It's because it's closer to home.

I understand that, but what about US or Australia or Canada.

[photekq]

I understand that, but what about US or Australia or Canada.

When I said 'closer to home' I didn't just mean geographically, I meant places that have similar cultures and societies to ours. Places that are 'Western' in that sense. US, Canada and Australia fall under that.

[seebart]

Controlled media Mr.Bean! 80% see only what the mainstream media will have them see. A large portion of those don't watch at all or don't care because it's "so far away" and "I've got my own problems in life".

[SL89]

Most are economic refugees from other parts of Africa or other parts of the Middle East. They arrive with no passports and claim to be Syrian or Libyan. Also, the vast majority of those coming into Europe do not come with their families. They come as young men, alone.

Do you have reputable sources for those statements?

[photekq]

Most are economic refugees from other parts of Africa or other parts of the Middle East. They arrive with no passports and claim to be Syrian or Libyan. Also, the vast majority of those coming into Europe do not come with their families. They come as young men, alone.

Do you have reputable sources for those statements?

Sure. I'll find them for you a bit later after I've eaten and gone to the library.

[Mr.Bean]

Controlled media Mr.Bean! 80% see only what the mainstream media will have them see. A large portion of those don't watch at all or don't care because it's "so far away" and "I've got my own problems in life".

True

[Muirium]

Time was, Germans were the most truly peace loving people in Europe. They'd lived through hell in the war, and then flourished in the occupation, led by their former mortal enemy: the United States. (Well, so long as they were lucky enough to be West German! The Soviets didn't behave nearly as well.) America's treatment of Germany after 1945 is a model our leaders have all forgotten today. Punishing all the Germans for Nazi deeds would have achieved nothing. That kind of retribution after WWI was what led to Hitler's rise, of course! So the Americans treated Germans well, like human beings, with hope and pride. And the nation which grew out of this experience was a great model for the rest of us, in its own right. Germans had seen the worst and the best in man. We had nothing to fear when they reunited with the fall of the Berlin wall, and took the leading position in European politics they have occupied ever since. France and Britain were more dangerous abroad — any of you kids heard of the total farce which was the Suez crisis? — but the Germans had their shit together. Soft power was their language. Stay out of conflict, and bolster your friends. That's the way to influence the world.

Trouble is, that postwar generation of Germans is getting old. And the youngsters — which would include me if I were German, of course — never saw the war, or much of the American occupation. What happens when a uniquely peaceful generation dies?

[seebart]

Most are economic refugees from other parts of Africa or other parts of the Middle East. They arrive with no passports and claim to be Syrian or Libyan. Also, the vast majority of those coming into Europe do not come with their families. They come as young men, alone.

Do you have reputable sources for those statements?

I know that there are economic refugees for sure, I don't have numbers, I don't think even the German authorities do at this time. I would not say the majortiy are economic refugees.

Trouble is, that postwar generation of Germans is getting old. And the youngsters — which would include me if I were German, of course — never saw the war, or much of the American occupation. What happens when a uniquely peaceful generation dies?

Yep that's right. One really important one just died. RIP Helmut Schmidt. Of course technically he was not "post war" generation. Times are changing.

17021016,14326309,highRes,XVM03A_71-41467615_ori.jpg (29.63 KiB) Viewed 4911 times

[SL89]

Most are economic refugees from other parts of Africa or other parts of the Middle East. They arrive with no passports and claim to be Syrian or Libyan. Also, the vast majority of those coming into Europe do not come with their families. They come as young men, alone.

Do you have reputable sources for those statements?

Sure. I'll find them for you a bit later after I've eaten and gone to the library.

I really appreciate it, because between the social media hearsay and the deluge of skewed news reports its been very hard to find someone reporting on it who doesn't have skin in the game.

Trouble is, that postwar generation of Germans is getting old. And the youngsters — which would include me if I were German, of course — never saw the war, or much of the American occupation. What happens when a uniquely peaceful generation dies?

The same thing is happening in Japan and elsewhere (Including the United States.) As the Great War fades, so to do all the lessons learned from it.

[Muirium]

As far as I've heard, Japan isn't changing much. (They've had right wing nutjobs alive and well for a long time now. Ever heard of the Yasukuni Shrine? Always fun when the prime minister pays a visit…) But then again, Japan has so little immigration. Germany really opened up to the world after the war, letting many oppressed peoples set up communities there, which was poetic given how much effort the Nazis put into exterminating non-Germans just before. But Japan's engagement with the world has been on a different track. They're an island nation, of course, which lends itself to isolation. And no other nation but Japan speaks Japanese. But Japan sure did engage with the global economy, rising to economic superpower status. Yet with an almost entirely ethnically pure population. Make of that what you will.

Truth be told, I've always found Germany and Japan fascinating. Both blown to bits in the middle of the 20th century, yet both thriving, stronger than they've ever been, by its end. But now the generation that rebuilt them is shuffling out the way for the next. New minds might have older ideas than their parents.

[SL89]

I was speaking more towards the generation of peace making way for younger and (in Japan's case) more militant parties to come to the forefront. Ignoring the pacifism of their predecessors and trying to do what they think is right in a much bolder way.

[Muirium]

Talking with a friend about this, I wound up checking the Wikipedia article on suicide bombing, and saw a couple of things worth noting:

Its primary use is as a weapon of psychological warfare intended to affect a larger public audience.

A public audience that, with the global reach of media, has led to this:



500 attacks this year. That's 10 a week. Ugly damn business this martyrdom nonsense.