Paris

[seebart]

Hmm interesting and disturbing statistic. Around 2000 the guts started hitting the fan in a big way. I wonder how accurate this is.

[webwit]

"Its primary use is as a weapon of psychological warfare intended to affect a larger public audience."

I don't really agree. It's a dirty war from both sides, both with dirty propaganda, and a suicide attack is just as psychological as a drone attack. Endless retaliation. Innocent people get killed at both sides. Objectively, there are two sides in this war. One side has the superior weapons, means and technology. The other side thus uses religion and suicide attacks as their weapons. It's hideous, but there's logic in that. I'm afraid the only way to end it is when all the oil has been burned, and the west gets out of there. It's not like they are attacking countries with wildly different religions which aren't there.

[seebart]

Looking at the "islamic state" they may be inferior in weapons and means etc. but they still must have quite a bit of financial support. There also must be a logistical coordination on several levels in different countries, probably moreso than we assume. Right, you don't see them killing people in south America for example.

[Muirium]

So we're on the same page…

Talking with a friend about this, I wound up checking the Wikipedia article on suicide bombing, and saw a couple of things worth noting:

Its primary use is as a weapon of psychological warfare intended to affect a larger public audience.

A public audience that, with the global reach of media, has led to this:



500 attacks this year. That's 10 a week. Ugly damn business this martyrdom nonsense.

The numbers look about right to me. Including the dip around 2010, when Iraq was finally headed in the right direction. But not for long! Islamic State only kicked off quite recently, with a vengeance, especially in Syria. There's too much carnage there to even cover properly in the western news. Then there's the delightful Boko Haram in Nigeria, with their fixation on attacking children for maximum effect…



Brilliantly subversive art, by a woman of the Syrian diaspora, considered too dangerous to be shown in London. Don't want to go inviting terrorists now, do we? Better just shut up with all this freedom of artistic expression guff. Anyone got a black flag we can put on Buck House?

Anywho, I do slightly agree with you Webwit. This madness isn't in a vacuum. They're retaliating for something. But I don't think it is as simple as oil. I think a good part of it is how western culture has become world culture; there's push-back, a sense of outrage at our support for things like racial equality, homosexuality and women's rights, especially when we impose them with our alliances and aid programs or advertise them in our media, polluting the minds of youth with our demonic liberal filth.

But the bleeding wound is Palestine. A conflict not about oil, and all about blood.

[seebart]

Oh shit this Mimsy stuff is brilliant, this one is my favorite; the Sylvania are chillin at their Cider and Beer festival while isis is scoping in the bushes ready to fuck shit up.

Unbenannt.PNG (459.6 KiB) Viewed 4847 times

[Phill1]

Most are economic refugees from other parts of Africa or other parts of the Middle East. They arrive with no passports and claim to be Syrian or Libyan. Also, the vast majority of those coming into Europe do not come with their families. They come as young men, alone.

Do you have reputable sources for those statements?

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/small-minority ... es-1520345

Eurostat puts the figure of actual Syrians around 1 in 5

http://data.unhcr.org/mediterranean/regional.php

unhcr measures 65 percent male immigrants to 20 percent children and 15 percent women. Didn't know polyandry was the preferred form of marriage under islam

There are of course actual Syrian Muslim families fleeing from terrorism in the region. However, it also appears that many immigrants are simply acting opportunistically, which makes sense from a rational actor perspective. Without going through normal immigration processes it will be hard to tell the two apart.

[fohat]

But at the core of them lies the forgotten peace process yet another conspiracy nutjob assassinated along with Yitzhak Rabin.

I believe that the continued Israeli occupation of the Palestinian territories serves as the smoldering fuse that unites the Muslim world in anger.

And, since I abandoned my strict Presbyterian upbringing decades ago, I see "religion" in general as an evil that needs to wither up and fade away altogether, because the idea that "God is on our side" is the rallying cry for almost every war.

[Muirium]

I was raised without religion. So I could be a know it all atheist if I chose. But I don't. Even though I'm still not religious myself, I think faith can be a beautiful thing and deserves respect. Religion isn't what makes people into murdering bastards, rather religion is a tool that murdering bastards use.

In fact, it all boils down to identity really. I checked that Wikipedia page earlier to confirm my hunch that the Tamil Tigers were the ones to pioneer contemporary suicide bombing. The women who did it were godless socialists. They didn't need to believe in an afterlife to blow themselves apart. They thought the ends of their struggle justified their human sacrifice to no god at all.

Didn't quite work out that way of course.

[ramnes]

I've a friend who once told me "the problem is not religions, it's people; we don't deserve religions". This is so true.

[Muirium]

Aye.

Wonder when we'll have a technological fix for this. We can hail taxis from the ether now, and communicate wirelessly around the world. Where's the gun tracking? And the long range explosive detection? Terrorism is a crime, asking to be policed.

These guys couldn't have done quite so much with just their bare fists. In fact, they'd be indistinguishable from any typical Friday night hooligan on his way to a beating and the slammer!

[SL89]

@Phill1 thanks for that.

[Findecanor]

Here's another conspiracy theory I've heard: The attacks were supported by major oil interests in the Middle East as a way to sabotage the UN Climate Change Conference scheduled to be held in Paris in two weeks.

[Muirium]

I hear it was all orchestrated by transvestite guineapigs. The little bastards.


Just out of interest: what's the going rate for these guys? How much money must you pay a man to kill himself and dozens of other people he has nothing against? And how will his corpse spend it?

[vivalarevolución]

If we could drop bombs filled with love, compassion, acceptance, empathy, understanding, and a healthy sense of humor, perhaps we could stop killing each other.

If anyone wants to join me on this journey to that fantasy world, please come along. All are invited.

[Muirium]

I'll dig into this later, it's quite a long read. But at first glance it looks fascinating: What Isis Really Wants.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/arc ... ts/384980/

We're living in an age full of apocalyptic desires.

[vivalarevolución]

I've a friend who once told me "the problem is not religions, it's people; we don't deserve religions". This is so true.

Your friend is absolutely correct. The root of all human-caused problems is individual people, as dumb and simple as that sounds. How we interpret information, make decisions, and act on an individual level are more important than religions in general. As adults, we are all responsible for our behavior and how we raise our children and interact with others. Unless you have serious mental incapacities, you have control over what you do. You cannot eliminate religion and think that it will eliminate the root causes within human nature and behavior.

Obviously, there are greater societal trends that influence how individuals think and act. For example, the patriotic, military traditions in the USA turn into any questioner of the massive, wasteful, deceiving military-industrial complex into an enemy that should keep their mouth shut. So you support bombing random people halfway across the world. In the case of ISIS terrorists, they have various causes and ideologies that serve as inspiration for killing innocent civilians in the western world and in their homelands. Part of the rallying cry is the the western world's penchant to bomb innocent civilians in the Middle East and devaluing human life.

Of course, acting as a free-thinking, peace-loving individual is more difficult when you are faced with the choice of being killed for speaking and peacefully acting against the people with the killing weapons.

The details on these matters always are a little different, but I always wonder what causes a person to be so filled with hate and ideology and an intent to kill people that never did anything hurtful to them, to indiscriminately view others as the enemy.


And, ramnes, really sorry that your neighborhood turned in a war zone for a night. I knew that I once sent a package in the vicinity of the Bataclan when I looked up the theatre location. Eagles of Death Metal are a sick band and if I was a Parisian keyboard geek, I very well could have been at that concert. It's amazing how connected we all are. I don't what the keyboard community could do to help, but let us know if there is anything.

[seebart]

It is being reported that the terrorists are between the ages of 15-29! Young men as usual, much easier to brainwash young adults. Trained and equipped, their minds and souls filled with specific hate. Ideally these young men need to have grown up or lived in Europe. Of course the internet must be a mighty tool for these terror groups. And yes, the allies are providing them with endless propaganda material. Meanwhile rightwing nationalists across Europe are riding the wave of fear to push their political agenda, all this combined with the massive refugee chaos.

[vivalarevolución]

It is being reported that the terrorists are between the ages of 15-29! Young men as usual, much easier to brainwash young adults. Trained and equipped, their minds and souls filled with specific hate. Ideally these young men need to have grown up or lived in Europe. Of course the internet must be a mighty tool for these terror groups. And yes, the allies are providing them with endless propaganda material. Meanwhile rightwing nationalists across Europe are riding the wave of fear to push their political agenda, all this combined with the massive refugee chaos.

Par for the course, it is always easier to instill radical beliefs in young men, governments and militaries and ideologies have known this for centuries.

I'll dig into this later, it's quite a long read. But at first glance it looks fascinating: What Isis Really Wants.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/arc ... ts/384980/

We're living in an age full of apocalyptic desires.

I read the whole article, thanks. It is worth a read. I don't think many people understand the particular ideology and motivations for ISIS, they just seem them as another Muslim terrorist group. It seems like they will not settle with only carving out and maintaining their own little fiefdom. They believe that it is their duty to keep expanding their territory and ideology until they fulfill their vision of carrying out the apocalypse. Basically anyone that is not them is the enemy. That quite a motivational tactic.

And people are moving in droves to the Islamic State to accept ISIS rule and fight with them. It's easy to understand why they are drawn to the ideology. It is much easier to accept what you are told to believe and do rather than ask too many questions. ISIS can give you all of life's answers in a blood-stained gift box.

Fighting ISIS is an ideological war, first and foremost. But it more than ideology because they do more than preach, they shed lots of blood and have every intent to continue shedding blood. I always prefer that each country keeps their shit to themselves, these guys see everyone else as someone that must be converted or killed. The best hope for minimally destructive solution is the movement stalls or retreats, loses appeal and supporters, and loses a lot of leadership. The state disintegrates, some semblance of collaboration returns, we have a bit more non violence. Then you are left with the millions of believers without a central structure to follow. What happens then? Where do they go?

What a mess. The world does not appear to moving towards peace, but towards more violence.

[seebart]

Unfortunately I have to agree with you,on another note here is a pretty interesting read.

https://theintercept.com/2015/11/15/exp ... ered-isis/

[fohat]

I read the whole article, thanks. It is worth a read.

What a mess. The world does not appear to moving towards peace, but towards more violence.

I read it all, too. I had been thinking somewhat along those lines but now I know that I was underestimating it considerably.

What is the solution for dealing with people who have no desire for "peace love and understanding" on any level?

Particularly when any modern sentient person can hardly see them as anything but insane criminals.

[vivalarevolución]

What is the solution for dealing with people who have no desire for "peace love and understanding" on any level?

Particularly when any modern sentient person can hardly see them as anything but insane criminals.

As a pacifist that looks for the non-violent solution in any situation, that is a hard question to answer. I hate war, I hate senseless killing, because it seems to inspire more killing, not solve anything. I know it is very difficult to change a person's mindset when they are heavily invested in an ideology. Unfortunately, these folks are heavily invested in a violent ideology.

I see them as people that at some point developed a narcissistic belief in the holiness of their cause and succumb to basic negative human emotions like hatred, violence, and tribalism to give themselves purpose that nothing else in life ever has. Then they use a culture of fear and violence and rigidity to enforce their power.

This group of facists seems like they will not stop until they conquer all or are conquered. They are not satisfied with lording over a small fiefdom, they want more than that. In the past week, they have shown that their violence is not isolated to faraway deserts. They want other nations to engage. They want the western armies to invade them. Any engagement from western militaries will be used as a rallying cry and could bolster support for ISIS.

I fear that the ultimate solution to ceasing the spread of ISIS and their ideology is responding to their violence with violence. However, we don't know if a violent response would dissolve their power and influence, or increase support and recruitment for them. And we already know what happens when you get involved in different parts of the world and act like you know what is best for everybody...

It does seem that the stubbornness and inflexibility of the group might be their downfall, because they intentions are predictable.

[photekq]

Most are economic refugees from other parts of Africa or other parts of the Middle East. They arrive with no passports and claim to be Syrian or Libyan. Also, the vast majority of those coming into Europe do not come with their families. They come as young men, alone.

Do you have reputable sources for those statements?

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/small-minority ... es-1520345

Eurostat puts the figure of actual Syrians around 1 in 5

http://data.unhcr.org/mediterranean/regional.php

unhcr measures 65 percent male immigrants to 20 percent children and 15 percent women. Didn't know polyandry was the preferred form of marriage under islam

There are of course actual Syrian Muslim families fleeing from terrorism in the region. However, it also appears that many immigrants are simply acting opportunistically, which makes sense from a rational actor perspective. Without going through normal immigration processes it will be hard to tell the two apart.

Yeah, Eurostat is the source I was going by. Thanks for posting it.

[elecplus]

I have had the unique lifetime experience of going around the world 3 times before I was 19. I lived for 2 1/2 years as a child in India, in a Hindu village, but I attended a British Baptist missionary boarding school that also accepted day students. The village was primarily Hindu, but we had household servants from all walks of life. The caste system was still very much in place. The girl who cleaned the bathrooms was never allowed in the kitchen, etc. But all of them were excellent people. I learned to appreciate all people, regardless of color, language, or religion. We often had dinner parties, and it was difficult for my mother to make meals that satisfied the dietary requirements of every guest. But we accommodated everyone, and those years are some of my fondest memories. We are all God's children, in my opinion.

[vivalarevolución]

I have had the unique lifetime experience of going around the world 3 times before I was 19. I lived for 2 1/2 years as a child in India, in a Hindu village, but I attended a British Baptist missionary boarding school that also accepted day students. The village was primarily Hindu, but we had household servants from all walks of life. The caste system was still very much in place. The girl who cleaned the bathrooms was never allowed in the kitchen, etc. But all of them were excellent people. I learned to appreciate all people, regardless of color, language, or religion. We often had dinner parties, and it was difficult for my mother to make meals that satisfied the dietary requirements of every guest. But we accommodated everyone, and those years are some of my fondest memories. We are all God's children, in my opinion.

Thank you, that is a great attitude and mindset I wish we could all emulate to some degree.

[andrewjoy]

Islam isn't about murder, but it is about conquest. I see a lot of people expressing sympathy towards those in France, but then also going on to say that "terrorism has no religion" and that "only 0.01% of Muslims agree with this!". I'm sorry, but those are both wrong. Currently there is no other religion that uses terrorism on a scale anywhere near Islam. Also, I was very surprised by the number of Muslims who have extremists beliefs.

This is unfortunately true, but you will never hear this on the news or from politicians. Its true that the majority of muslims would never take action like this, but there is no other religion that acts in this way, at least in the modern age.
There is no other religion that indoctrinates people to this scale, when was the last Buddhist or hindu suicide bomber, when did the last Cristian fly a passenger plane full of civilians into a building full of civilians.

I am sorry to say it but the teachings of islam are incompatible with freedom of speech, scientific progress and civilised society. In sharia law if you want to leave the muslim faith you will be killed, homosexuals are executed , adulterers are stoned, women are imprisoned for getting raped and so on. Do you remember the danish cartoonist who was beheaded in the street for drawing a picture? Well 66% of British muslims think he should have been imprisoned for drawing the cartoons.

And every single time you bring this up some sectors of society ( usually hyper progressives, that make my leftist views look facist) will scream "racism" ( how you can be racist to an ideology i don't know). Or the term islamaphobia is brought out and swung around like its totally irrotational to fear an ideology that will attack unarmed civilians in the name of a figment in the imagination of a bronze age desert primitive.

As a species we need to be able to criticise bad ideas and islam is one of the worst ideas ever, the world would be a safer and better place without it. Its true that all religions have at some point had problems with violence and killing ( the crusades for example) but that was 100s of yeas ago. Its also true that the teachings of all religions are diametrically opposed to scientific progress ( sacrificing birds to cure sickness for example) there is no excuse whatsoever in 2015 for any of the ideas of this backwards little cult to be protected or supported.

[Muirium]

This is unfortunately true, but you will never hear this on the news or from politicians.

There's a reason for that. This kind of argument is the path to genocide. What are you proposing? The western world demands Muslims to give up their faith? And what happens next, when they rightly refuse?

Its true that the majority of muslims would never take action like this, but there is no other religion that acts in this way, at least in the modern age.

And there's the key. Mainstream Christianity used to be hell, as well. We fought massive wars over it — the biggest one killed 8 million people — all in the name of biblical purity, Protestant vs. Catholic, and whether the Bishop of Rome was the Antichrist! The worst of the Middle East today was happening all over Europe a few centuries ago.

And you don't have to go back anything like that far. How about 1993?

Every religion can be weaponised. In fact, every belief system at all. Modern suicide bombing was pioneered by atheist Tamil Tigers, remember. You don't need to believe in an afterlife to blow yourself to bits.

The enemy is extremism, period.

[matt3o]

religion is an excuse, humanity is a shit anyway.

[Muirium]

That's a quicker way of saying it!

[andrewjoy]

There's a reason for that. This kind of argument is the path to genocide. What are you proposing? The western world demands Muslims to give up their faith? And what happens next, when they rightly refuse?

No of corse not, but why are the inherent problems with the faith such as killing people if they want to leave or the subjugation of women never openly talked about or criticised as they rightfully should be? Its not as if they are extremist views there are governments that support sharia law. If there are so many bad apples then maybe there is a problem with the orchard ?

As with anything, education is the best tool to combat bat shit crazy ideas, this is why for example that the school in Pakistan was attacked, and its why boko haram ( literal translation "unclean book") is opposed to the education of girls.

The better educated the western world became the more the power and the radical/violent elements of christianity fell away. Unfortunately the islamic world is not there, 100s of years ago the islamic world was the centre of science and education back when we where all burning each-other for being witches, this changed when the focus was pushed to a more radical path. All religion is an enemy of education but there are some that are worse than others.

You are 100% correct when you say that any religion can be weaponised but the overwhelming majority of terrorist attacks in the past 20 years have been attributed to a group that claims to follow islam.

And yes any extremist philosophy is dangerous. I would criticise christianity or secularism in the exact same way if they acted in a violent extremist manner.

As a wise man once said " Religion is just an excuse for people to be crappy to each-other".

[shreebles]

I'll dig into this later, it's quite a long read. But at first glance it looks fascinating: What Isis Really Wants.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/arc ... ts/384980/

Really quite a long read, but fascinating, too! There goes my workday.

With all the scares that ISIS are creating this article actually made me a bit hopeful. Not because I think that they aren't a threat to humanity (they are a HUGE threat!), but because it shows that their uncompromising faith in books that are thousands of years old will be their demise.

They have no interest in invading Europe. According to them, Jihadists who go to Europe to blow stuff up aren't doing the right thing - while they're killing infidels abroad they're not at home expanding the Caliphate! Those infidels closer to them are much higher up in their list of priorities - they want to kill the "wrong muslims" first and enslave the rest. Their caliphate is legitimated by expanding their territory and constantly waging war.

As the article states, a country with few natural resources, barren lands, poor people and no friends in the rest of the world community. They don't respect borders. No one would respect their country. Only criminals would trade with them.
How are they going to finance this perpetual state of war, let alone feed all their soldiers? An army can't run on faith alone.

And it doesn't matter to them, because they expect a thousand year old prophecy to fulfill itself VERY SOON: That their army will clash with the army of Rome (Europe, America, or the republic of Turkey, infidels either way) at some city in the middle east because their holy book said so. Nevermind the fact that the infidels didn't read their book so how would the army of Rome know where to go? And then their army will be reduced to 5000 or so due to the anti-messiah that the army of Rome sent, until Jesus comes and brings on the apocalypse. End of the world. So they're not really focusing on long-term planning with their Caliphate, and hopefully it will collapse before it can expand much further.