Designing the next Topre keycap set

[matt3o]

topre switches are boring as hell (typed on a Leopold 660C)

[Muirium]

Topre is the only manufacturer still in business I can compare with classic IBM and the other greats. They aren't the endgame keyboard (endgame = end of fun, people forget) but they are the apex predator of the contemporary keyboard realm.

I know where you're coming from, though, Zslane. They don't get us. But Topre's awkward indifference is as much part of the Japanese corporation package as it is an honest distaste for the scene. They're trying. They're just trying badly! Which is why things could be a lot better, if they listened and understood what we mean.

[romevi]

topre switches are boring as hell (typed on a Leopold 660C)

Ah, see? They're so good they're boring.
Bad keyboards will have you nitpick over everything that's wrong with it. Topre is so flawless that there's nothing for you to quibble over, and thus nothing to keep you occupied from typing!

[Muirium]

Meanwhile, MX is exciting, like an invigorating ride through rapids on a makeshift raft, that's on fire, and also occupied by a Bengal tiger.

Or maybe more like driving across Tennessee with 4 other people crammed inside a rattly old Renault 5.

Spoiler:

Pretty sure it's one or the other.

[zslane]

Topres may be the best tactile switch there is, but MX switches still win in other areas:

1. Linear style
2. Clicky style
3. Compatibility with custom keycaps, particularly SA and DSA families from SP
4. More keyboard vendors using them as OEM parts (i.e., far more competition in the marketplace)

If I was going to get into tactile switches, it would be Topre without a doubt. But it simply won't happen until I can put my SP keycaps on them. Even matt3o's fine work for Topre can't make me a fan of cylindrical caps.

[Muirium]

You got a HiPro already, right? That should be the best of both worlds there, for an according price!

MX really sucks at being a clicky switch. Anyone into those, with an allergy to vintage boards, should go Unicomp. Then see the light, go IBM, graduate and get a Model F! The comparison between buckling spring at its best and MX at its worst is night and day. A bright, clear, summer's day vs. a stormy Scottish winter's night, lashing down with heartless, icy rain.

MX is okay at linear, but again it's far from great. So scratchy.

[Khers]

...MX switches still win in other areas:
2. Clicky style

Wat?

[romevi]

...MX switches still win in other areas:
2. Clicky style

Wat?

I think he means in comparison to Topre.
We all know IBM takes the cake for clicky.

[Plasmodium]

I've wondered about Topre for a little while now, having always used MX brown switches (I'm such a noob, I've only ever used one keyboard in fact). I hear do much about them that I almost feel that if I ever tried one I'd be disappointed. There is a lot of hype, which always makes my cynical mind suspicious...

But it's a dangerous curiousity given their prices...

[Muirium]

We have a workaround for that:

http://deskthority.net/try-f29/the-real ... 10148.html

The good thing about Topre's expense is that one or two of them ought to be enough. You should see all my IBMs, though. I got most of them for less than the price of a *bad* MX keyset, let alone a good one! An IBM collection can grow very fast.

[Plasmodium]

Yes, I have seen those community tours... But I'm scared of what might happen if I try it out and really like it! I might end up wanting one for myself, and I don't think my wallet can take another hit - my hand built project has already gotten pretty pricey. Maybe one day, though...

[zslane]

You got a HiPro already, right? That should be the best of both worlds there, for an according price!

MX really sucks at being a clicky switch. Anyone into those, with an allergy to vintage boards, should go Unicomp. Then see the light, go IBM, graduate and get a Model F! The comparison between buckling spring at its best and MX at its worst is night and day. A bright, clear, summer's day vs. a stormy Scottish winter's night, lashing down with heartless, icy rain.

MX is okay at linear, but again it's far from great. So scratchy.

I was using MX to point out the limitations of Topre. Topre doesn't make a linear or clicky switch, so in a cage match between Topre and MX in these categories, MX wins by default because Topre has nothing to put into the cage. You really have to be a fan of tactile switches or else Topre is pretty irrelevant.

I have a HiPro, yes, but I must learn to love Topre's sphericals or it just sits in its box. MX wins again because with MX-equipped keyboards, if I don't like the stock caps, I have two spherical families, two materials, two legend processes, and numerous custom sets to choose from (with more being designed and produced every month, including my own hopefully). Topre's inability to offer that kind of flexibility/variety is what makes it a second class citizen in my book.

Believe me, I'd love to become a Topre fan. But I just can't. Not until they wake up and smell the MX stems. And no amount of cylindrical "Matt3o Specials" is going to change that.

[matt3o]

Ah, see? They're so good they're boring.
Bad keyboards will have you nitpick over everything that's wrong with it. Topre is so flawless that there's nothing for you to quibble over, and thus nothing to keep you occupied from typing!

I'd say, they are so good they are good even if they are boring

I mean compared to buckling or MX green or monterey or futaba... they feel pretty boring, but as a daily driver so far they are the best I could find.

[Muirium]

Montereys: yes, they're snappy and full of character. Almost as nice as buckling spring. But Futabas? I was disappointed when I finally did encounter a mint condition keyboard full of them, and I'm not alone in that thread…

Anyway, I use Model F day in, day out. Topre is every bit as good. I couldn't describe either as boring. The crucial word for Topre in that comparison is quiet!

[zslane]

If I was forced to pick one keyboard to use, say at work, and the choices given to me were a Model F, a Topre RealForce, or an MX board where I was not allowed to put my own caps on, I'd go for the RealForce. Then the MX board. I am allergic to anything with an IBM logo on it.

[SL89]

I mean compared to buckling or MX green or monterey or futaba... they feel pretty boring, but as a daily driver so far they are the best I could find.

Greens are the best, Skull Squadron SA someday please!

[Hypersphere]

@matt3o: Nice to see your keycap set up for sale, even if it is on Massdrop! Regarding the listing on Massdrop, it is not entirely clear to me what is included in the base set and in the extra set. Does the base set include the dark-color tilde and backslash keys?

[matt3o]

@matt3o: Nice to see your keycap set up for sale, even if it is on Massdrop! Regarding the listing on Massdrop, it is not entirely clear to me what is included in the base set and in the extra set. Does the base set include the dark-color tilde and backslash keys?

the base set includes ALL the keys you see in the mock-up

[Hypersphere]

@matt3o: Thanks. What about the color of the dark (modifier) keycaps? Is this color the same as the dark gray on the black Topre RF87U keyboards?

[matt3o]

no, it's lighter

[Hypersphere]

no, it's lighter

Thanks for the information. There goes my plan to mix in some mods from a black RF87U! All is not lost, however. I can either swap out all the mods or leave them the way they are. I might also use a red Ctrl from a custom HHKB set to balance the red Enter key.

[cswanic]

Matt3o, we're coming down to the end of the line with this GB.
1. What's the status on this?
2. Are we canceling on the committed and joined purchases or is this getting extended out again?
3. Are we rerunning this under a totally different gb?
Posted on GH and DT since GB ends in about 8 hours

[cookie]

there will be some spare key that could be used to spice up a HHKB layout, but still you'll miss some keys.

Awareness raised!

[Hypersphere]

This morning, I was greeted by this annoying email from Massdrop:

"Unfortunately the Custom Topre Keycap Set drop didn’t receive enough purchases to drop in price. You won’t be charged.

Sharing on Facebook, Twitter, and Reddit are some great ways to help make the price drop in the future. Better luck next time!"

I don't use Facebook or Twitter, and I use Reddit relatively rarely. No mention of Deskthority?!

[andrewjoy]

It will be an auto generated email i think , so thats possibly why.

Still Fuck Massdrop!

[cookie]

Now that I have the novatouch to test I really see that I am completely lost to the HHKB and I sincerely hope that I could have more keycap variety in the future.

[Muirium]

The chances for that have just plopped into the sea. If even MassDrop isn't enough to make a Topre set take off — a Matteo design! — what exactly is?

Of course, I think the real problem with this set is how it didn't play well with existing Topre caps. I couldn't justify buying it. And I assume that's why many of my fellow Realforce owning caps fetishists didn't buy, either. This set wasn't a masterpiece on its own terms, like the ever successful Granite, and it didn't complement stock HHKB or Realforce caps either. That reduced its appeal significantly.

Once the pooch is screwed, well, will Topre still be interested in a second shot? And will they learn their lesson and stand out of the way of a truly classic design? We started off with something great, but that's not where we ended up.

I don't use Facebook or Twitter, and I use Reddit relatively rarely. No mention of Deskthority?!

Of course not. They like us just as much as we do them! Besides, what MassDrop wants is money and the way they choose to get that is via hype and milking their simple minded customers. DT is a downright shitty place to post your hype and get it shared by the masses. We're not nearly as well optimized for questionless advertising as Twitter and the rest.

Like.
Follow me.
Buy buy buy.

[matt3o]

the drop will be resumed if Topre accepts the new layout early next year.

[Muirium]

New? Where? Wanna see!

[Madhias]

I would think of adding HHKB support could help. I also did not take part in the drop, I don't know why exactly. Multiple reasons: stock caps are nice, and I don't feel the need for replacement on my Realforce. That's maybe completely different in the MX markets: all keyboards come with shitty keycaps which need to be replaced because of ugly legends and thin plastics. Other MX sets then are often so fancy, that you need to replace them again after a while. So it is an ongoing market.

Second reason is really a lazy one, but it worked for me not to spend money: every time I click on a Massdrop link THAT FUCKING LOGIN SIGN IN PAGE pops up, which I willingly ignore first, copy and paste the login credentials, but confused then the SIGN UP with the LOGIN. Maybe that is to get more customers to buy knives, headphones and leather accessories and Men's Style articles (and keyboards). And a Corvette. Come on!