F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

[Ellipse]

Could be another week or two.

[Elrick]

Could be another week or two.

The MOST anticipated Keyboard of the Year, hope you don't metamorph into 7bit here .

His Group Buys went on for a couple of years, till we saw anything delivered to our front doors .

[Ellipse]

Yep this is an exciting project - it will be a great moment when I do the unboxing, hopefully soon.

Does anyone know the best way to create very easy to use online shopping carts? I prefer something like the Lenovo or Dell notebook configuration page where you can pick either a wizard or a list and then see photos and make selections of what you want, as opposed to looking around a site and clicking "add to cart" for various pieces. I may just use PayPal's option but I need to look more into this.

[codemonkeymike]

I could help out in my down time, there may be a wordpress template that would work well if you are willing to spend a few bucks. I could do some customization if you need it.

[Ellipse]

Major update: The sample barrels, springs and flippers have arrived! They all appear to be very good quality and the correct materials for this project.

After some brief testing the flippers work! This is a major relief that the plastic might not prove correct. The new flippers convey key presses firmly and accurately as well as the originals, from my initial testing (of course extensive testing will be done after the full prototypes arrive). The new springs are also excellent and require the same amount of force to buckle as original Model F springs. They fit on the flippers well.

Unfortunately the barrels will need a few 0.1 mm adjustments in the molds before they are excellent (the insides of the new barrels require a little more room to match the originals). I filed down one sample barrel 0.1 mm in the needed areas to correct this issue and the new barrel is just as smooth in operation as the originals. This will likely cause a delay in the project unfortunately.

To show how similar my units are to the originals, in the photos I have included a mix of original barrels/flippers/springs as well as the reproductions that arrived today.

Can you tell which ones in the photos are originals and which ones are the new ones?

20151201_195949.jpg (300.78 KiB) Viewed 6159 times

20151201_195849.jpg (345.44 KiB) Viewed 6159 times

20151201_195914.jpg (296.62 KiB) Viewed 6159 times

20151201_195852.jpg (300.46 KiB) Viewed 6159 times

20151201_195917.jpg (183.31 KiB) Viewed 6159 times

20151201_195937.jpg (278.95 KiB) Viewed 6159 times

20151201_195923.jpg (227.25 KiB) Viewed 6159 times

[Techno Trousers]

Nice! Using the view with springs in front, I'd guess the new ones are the two sets of barrels and corresponding springs/pivot plates on the right side. Originals are the two sets on the left.

[webwit]

When I saw the first photo, I guessed the opposite, because the ones on the right have more dust and look older. Could be the light.

Edit: That's from the opposite view, so we're talking the same thing.

[wcass]

I agree that they look excellent!

There's one give-away. IBM made so many of these that they numbered the molds (probably to track when they needed to replace them). Look for the numbers and you will find the originals.

[Elrick]

Unfortunately the barrels will need a few 0.1 mm adjustments in the molds before they are excellent (the insides of the new barrels require a little more room to match the originals). I filed down one sample barrel 0.1 mm in the needed areas to correct this issue and the new barrel is just as smooth in operation as the originals. This will likely cause a delay in the project unfortunately.

See to it, doesn't matter if the original timeline is pushed back because we know what's involved here.

If you don't get the barrels right there will be hell to pay by some enthusiasts that hold the IBM as sacred and godlike mechanism, hence you need to appease them first before going forward with this. The bitching and moaning that shall occur when you finally release this keyboard with anything that doesn't match the original key-switch standard will be enormous.

Get it done right, then all you will hear is golden silence with the resonance of this supreme keyboard .

[REVENGE]

Interesting. The profiles of the new barrels are visibly different than the originals. I guess that's where the 1mm difference lies.

By the way, please add an option to buy those barrels, flippers, and springs in bulk!

[andrewjoy]

I would rather wait and it be prefect than have it not be right!

There have also been some experiments on M/F barrels with dry lube. It may be worth using this on them also

[darkspider]

wow, gorgeous! They look completely identical for my eyes.

[Ellipse]

Thanks all. The factory did a really good job on their first try despite a few mistakes. It's unfortunate that the prototypes were not 100% perfect for all components and that there will be a few more weeks' delay. I don't think these will be done by Christmas at this rate

There are always small inaccuracies when doing plastic injection molding but this factory was so good that many of the measurements were accurate to a few 100ths of a mm compared to my original CAD files, which is amazing work. Much more accurate than even the original barrels' sample variations!

The factory is continuing to do the testing and they have been very kind to document their progress with many of the photos I've been posting. In this recent photo they are checking the fit of top inner assembly with the barrels. They confirmed that it is a good tight fit, even with foam and the space needed for the capacitive PCB. Too tight a fit and it could scratch the barrels or powdercoated paint, while too loose a fit and there may be more barrel movement than the movement allowed by the original standards.

[andrewjoy]

The cut outs for the key on the side of the barrels do not look very uniform to me. Is this just a prototype ?

[fohat]

The cut outs for the key on the side of the barrels do not look very uniform to me. Is this just a prototype ?

I wondered about that, too.

In the "middle of the field" it won't matter because they stand shoulder-to-shoulder and keep themselves in place, but around the periphery the alignment tabs are more important. Anyway, once seated in the foam they should be stable.

[andrewjoy]

From a production standpoint would the XT style not have been a better call ?

[codemonkeymike]

I think it is more of an optical illusion as the picture is of on an angle to a curved plate.

[chzel]

Codemonkeymike, as I understand it, andrewjoy means the locating notch. Some of them show very clearly and not so gracefully that they are a 3 part operation, drill large hole, drill small hole, remove bridge. Look at the lower right. It's more evident there.
I imagine that the final plates will be stamped, eliminating this issue.

[codemonkeymike]

I see what you mean, I thought he was saying the issue is with the alignment of the holes across the row.

[Ellipse]

Yep when I get the prototypes I will be sure to inspect them closely. If they are not good I will send them back. That bottom right hole does look a bit odd in the photo and I am waiting to hear back from the factory.

Thanks all for keeping an eye on the quality control.

Here's a better photo showing the fit of the barrels in the other prototypes as they are being assembled and tested.

20151026_161439 (2).jpg (919.3 KiB) Viewed 5850 times

[0100010]

It's not just that bottom right one - pretty much every barrel hole in that pic has some issues.

Can you get a pic of how the bases of the barrels align on the back side of the plate?

[Ellipse]

010 I have reached out to the factory for some higher resolution photos of the top inner assemblies with no barrels installed.

They do not yet have the foam I'm using, so I can't send the bottom alignment. I did open up my original F77 and put some of the new barrels and flippers in as an initial test, and all worked well.

[andrewjoy]

I know its not somthing you can do on this one or even should do , but i was fed up with my barrles moving on my "less nice" 122 so i put a very small drop of super glue on them (just the alpha section), small enough so i can pop it off if needed. They don't move at all now .

You want the barrels as tight as possible, no wizards sleeve please !

Regarding Foam. Can you get them to make a batch of 107 foam as well , i know many 107 owners ( myself included) that would kill for some new foam.

Springs. Is it too late to add some sort of coating for rust prevention like cherry springs ?

[Elrick]

Springs. Is it too late to add some sort of coating for rust prevention like cherry springs ?

Wanted to know about this as well.

Because Chinese steel is world famous for rusting like Holden Monaro panels, will there be some sort of oil protectant or coating, to prevent the dreaded orange-like oxidation ?

[andrewjoy]

Not as bad as some lancia cars!

This is a lacia beta

[Ellipse]

The spring samples are imported Japanese steel plated with nickel. The springs I received are good and have a compression force within the tolerance range of IBM's original buckling spring spec, but I may change the spring material/coating for the final production if anyone has any suggestions.

Yes andrew I will be making other foam including F107.

[Muirium]

People love their gold plated Korean springs in MX. I'm sure that would sparkle up a Kishy quite nicely too! Model F springs are a bit… well… dull grey looking compared to the shinier ones in Model M. You can fix that!

[andrewjoy]

I don't mind what colour they are , as long as they are rust resistant.

[Elrick]

I don't mind what colour they are , as long as they are rust resistant.

YES, since you will never see them when they're in operation the most important thing is that they're completely rust resistant.

Anyone thought about using stainless steel springs instead ?

[Ellipse]

I believe stainless steel was used originally by IBM in many later Model M keyboards.

Does anyone know whether differences in sound characteristics are specifically attributable to different spring materials and platings/coatings, if there are any? I have not looked into this enough. Even each individual Model F keyboard of mine of the same model has a slightly different sound, probably due to many factors.

Given the factory delays and the need to make adjustments to the injection molds for the barrels, we are probably about 2-4 weeks away from the completed prototypes and the opening of orders. There is a lot more interest than I had expected - we recently made it to 200+ preorders! I was hoping for an earlier date to open the order form if there were no issues but I want to make sure that even the prototypes are great before accepting orders.

Are there one or more writers out there who can volunteer some of their time to help the project?

One of the final steps will be to help write a brief instruction manual, FAQs, something for the web site to introduce/summarize the project for those who may not be as familiar with the project, and anything else you think would be worthwhile (maybe a brief overview of buckling spring keyboards). xwhatsit's Model F USB manual is probably recommended reading too. I don't want to take anything already written though unless the author agrees to it.