SA Dasher & SA Dancer keycap sets (Completed)

zslane · 27 Jan 2016, 06:06

What (who?) is Originative?

morkl · 27 Jan 2016, 06:16

zslane wrote: ↑What (who?) is Originative?

http://www.originativeco.com/

niomosy · 27 Jan 2016, 06:27

Wasn't Originative in a bit of an ordeal with GH some time back? I thought I recall bits and pieces of that coming up in other topics not too long ago.

zslane · 27 Jan 2016, 07:42

Would anyone care to speculate on how vendors like Originative and Ctrl[Alt] compare to MassDrop in terms of the size of their keycap orders with SP in the course of a year?

niomosy · 27 Jan 2016, 07:59

zslane wrote: ↑Would anyone care to speculate on how vendors like Originative and Ctrl[Alt] compare to MassDrop in terms of the size of their keycap orders with SP in the course of a year?

Someone correct me if I'm wrong. MassDrop seems to dwarf Ctrl[Alt]. I admit I know less of Originative's volume, though I thought I recall seeing them on MassDrop as well. Ctrl[Alt] has probably had the larger recent business with SP. They've had SA Retro, Hack'd, Penumbra, Toxic, and Hyperfuse DCS and DSA. Can't recall if the Bro Set is also SP or not. That's over a span of 2 years or so.

MassDrop has done more volume than that this past year alone with Carbon, Danger Zone, and Troubled Minds from what I recall.

zslane · 27 Jan 2016, 08:09

So here are price estimates for SA Dasher. According to livingspeedbump, when you account for MassDrop's discount and markup, you end up with a price that is not much different from the raw quote.

Kit	25 sets	50 sets	100 sets
TKL	$118	$90	$76
NUMPAD	$38	$26	$19
ISO	$13	$10	$8
ARROWS	$11	$9	$8
SPECIALTY	$99	$69	$53

I find it interesting that there is a bigger price break between 25 and 50 than between 50 and 100.

zslane · 27 Jan 2016, 08:11

niomosy wrote: ↑
zslane wrote: ↑Would anyone care to speculate on how vendors like Originative and Ctrl[Alt] compare to MassDrop in terms of the size of their keycap orders with SP in the course of a year?
Someone correct me if I'm wrong. MassDrop seems to dwarf Ctrl[Alt]. I admit I know less of Originative's volume, though I thought I recall seeing them on MassDrop as well. Ctrl[Alt] has probably had the larger recent business with SP. They've had SA Retro, Hack'd, Penumbra, Toxic, and Hyperfuse DCS and DSA. Can't recall if the Bro Set is also SP or not. That's over a span of 2 years or so.

MassDrop has done more volume than that this past year alone with Carbon, Danger Zone, and Troubled Minds from what I recall.

If so, then I'm not sure why anyone would expect Ctrl[Alt] or Originative to enjoy the same volume discount that MassDrop does.

niomosy · 27 Jan 2016, 08:22

Okay. It's not quite the lower pricing everyone was hoping for but also isn't end-of-the-world pricing either. $95 for to cover a full keyboard (TKL + numpad) is fine with me. I suppose if it's run on MassDrop, a note of price increases from SP might be important to note for potential buyers.

zslane · 27 Jan 2016, 08:28

I have no sense whatsoever as to what constitutes end-of-the-world pricing. Some people are very cost sensitive, others not so much. But I anticipate that one common reaction will be that $95 is too much for a set that offers no sexy novelty keys (or put another way, "That's way too much for just a basic colorway set.")

niomosy · 27 Jan 2016, 08:29

zslane wrote: ↑
niomosy wrote: ↑
zslane wrote: ↑Would anyone care to speculate on how vendors like Originative and Ctrl[Alt] compare to MassDrop in terms of the size of their keycap orders with SP in the course of a year?
Someone correct me if I'm wrong. MassDrop seems to dwarf Ctrl[Alt]. I admit I know less of Originative's volume, though I thought I recall seeing them on MassDrop as well. Ctrl[Alt] has probably had the larger recent business with SP. They've had SA Retro, Hack'd, Penumbra, Toxic, and Hyperfuse DCS and DSA. Can't recall if the Bro Set is also SP or not. That's over a span of 2 years or so.

MassDrop has done more volume than that this past year alone with Carbon, Danger Zone, and Troubled Minds from what I recall.
If so, then I'm not sure why anyone would expect Ctrl[Alt] or Originative to enjoy the same volume discount that MassDrop does.

Right, that was my thought as well. To really compete with MassDrop, the community would need to move all group buys into a single NotMassDrop entity whose focus is to benefit the keyboard community. That still leaves a lot of sets at the higher-price tier(s) until said entity can gain enough volume to negotiate with SP and bring prices down.

That or simply go through MD and PMK systems and get the cheaper pricing. Several on GH seem to have something against MD because of the Triumph Adler problems. It's a strange thing. On one hand they're apprehensive about hippo running the group buy and it ends up killed. On the other, they don't want to use a system that has proven to typically be effective.

niomosy · 27 Jan 2016, 08:33

zslane wrote: ↑I have no sense whatsoever as to what constitutes end-of-the-world pricing. Some people are very cost sensitive, others not so much. But I anticipate that one common reaction will be that $95 is too much for a set that offers no sexy novelty keys (or put another way, "That's way too much for just a basic colorway set.")

You may be right. Yet there were lots of calls for a pure colorway set without novelties for Flatline and everyone was okay with that.

Honestly, I spent near $150 for a full board + novelties on the Troubled Minds set. If people are willing to fork out for GMK, I'm not sure why they'd balk so much as an SA set. But GH can be a fickle mistress so I suppose it's a wait-and-see there.

7bit · 27 Jan 2016, 09:45

Did they tell you when they can start to produce the keys?

harlw · 27 Jan 2016, 15:48

Looking forward to this one, hope it is successful.

livingspeedbump · 27 Jan 2016, 17:44

niomosy wrote: ↑
zslane wrote: ↑Would anyone care to speculate on how vendors like Originative and Ctrl[Alt] compare to MassDrop in terms of the size of their keycap orders with SP in the course of a year?
Someone correct me if I'm wrong. MassDrop seems to dwarf Ctrl[Alt]. I admit I know less of Originative's volume, though I thought I recall seeing them on MassDrop as well. Ctrl[Alt] has probably had the larger recent business with SP. They've had SA Retro, Hack'd, Penumbra, Toxic, and Hyperfuse DCS and DSA. Can't recall if the Bro Set is also SP or not. That's over a span of 2 years or so.

MassDrop has done more volume than that this past year alone with Carbon, Danger Zone, and Troubled Minds from what I recall.

Yeah, it seems most of their profit comes from their discount. For some sets on Jukebox, their dropping price was actually lower, on the sets like the base that sold many units. In general though their pricing and the PMK store pricing will generally be the cheapest for the public.

Massdrop and CTRL[ALT] aren't even directly comparable. CTRL[ALT] will make it very clear that they are NOT a business, just a few people doing drops together. While this is fun and admirable, their sets often take much longer than anticipated to ship out because of this. I think they have enough of their own stuff to run as well and don't usually run other peoples items.

Originative is pretty much a one man show. He mostly deals with GMK. Occasionally he will sell on MD (Like his Carbon Black or Dolch sets) and also just has a few sets he buys MOQ of and sells in his store like Charred Orange.

livingspeedbump · 27 Jan 2016, 17:59

I wouldn't worry about making novelties. I mean, many highly sought after sets, like Calm Depths, didn't have any extra novelties. I don't see the point of adding them when doing a recreation. Just ads silly looking keys that most people buying the set won't use.

t!ng · 27 Jan 2016, 18:06

Oh oh....

livingspeedbump · 27 Jan 2016, 18:06

https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyb ... on_dancer/

Also, posted to reddit for you.

niomosy · 27 Jan 2016, 19:08

livingspeedbump wrote: ↑https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyb ... on_dancer/

Also, posted to reddit for you.

Now you've done it

zslane · 27 Jan 2016, 19:27

Melissa only said that with their current production schedule, they can't begin anything new until April. Which is what I would have expected just given Round 6's production time alone. Make of that what you will.

I am grateful for livingspeedbump's involvement in this. His experience is invaluable to the effort.

To clarify a question that came up in the reddit thread, I did not submit SA Dasher to PMK, I merely requested a price quote from Melissa. But obviously they know about it now. As does MassDrop apparently. Yay! I plan to work with livingspeedbump to try and generate enough interest to get them to accept the set.

In truth, I'd be content to just go with the set as is, but I expect some minor tweaks to become necessary to get the GH crowd on board. I need to create a banner graphic and gather together all my renders and related info and then I will open the IC thread on GH. Any day now...

niomosy · 27 Jan 2016, 19:40

Great news, then. With Flatline falling out that's one less set my wallet has to content with while also wanting to buy other things. Glad to have livingspeedbump on board for the assist.

I think the GH crowd will take a little bit to mellow out. Emotions are still running a bit high, though it seems to have tapered off a bit since yesterday.

Also, looks like you're already on the official schedule for SP. http://pimpmykeyboard.com/key-status/

7bit · 27 Jan 2016, 19:52

Interesting status site. Must be new.

Code: Select all

Danger Zone         (SA)  In production  Expected completion 1/28
Troubled Minds      (SA)  In production  Expected completion 2/29
Black Selectric     (SA)  Scheduled      Expected completion mid-March
Round 6             (SA)  Scheduled      Expected completion April <---- me :-)
Nantucket Selectric (SA)  In queue       Expected completion May
Electric            (SA)  In queue       Expected completion June
Dasher and Dancer   (SA)  In queue       Expected completion June
Pulse Round 2       (SA)  In queue       Expected completion June

It seems nobody is interested in other styles anymore.

Imagine what they would produce if I did not let them make a 6.25 and 7 units space bar.

Big thanks to anyone who participated in Round 4 and accepted all of the remaining shortcomming with the spherical set, to make this possible!

zslane · 27 Jan 2016, 20:59

Okay, I really hesitate to open up this can of worms, especially in this particular thread, but...

7bit, what do you mean by "...if I did not let them make a 6.25 and 7 units space bar." ???

livingspeedbump · 27 Jan 2016, 21:04

Round 6 is going to be amazing

Muirium · 27 Jan 2016, 21:05

A false sense of ownership of SP's tooling for those keys.

zslane · 27 Jan 2016, 21:05

niomosy wrote: ↑Also, looks like you're already on the official schedule for SP. http://pimpmykeyboard.com/key-status/

I wouldn't interpret that as Dasher/Dancer actually being in line for production. My guess is that SP puts any set that requests a price quote into a tentative, virtual queue slot just in case they come up with the funds to put it into production. I'm sure that in the mean time, that slot gets bumped every time some other set pays to go into production.

I would also point out that I never indicated to Melissa that there was a related Dancer set. I only asked for a quote for Dasher, under the assumption that the prices would be identical. How SP knew to call it Dasher/Dancer is a mystery.

niomosy · 27 Jan 2016, 21:12

zslane wrote: ↑
niomosy wrote: ↑Also, looks like you're already on the official schedule for SP. http://pimpmykeyboard.com/key-status/
I wouldn't interpret that as Dasher/Dancer actually being in line for production. My guess is that SP puts any set that requests a price quote into a tentative, virtual queue slot just in case they come up with the funds to put it into production. I'm sure that in the mean time, that slot gets bumped every time some other set pays to go into production.

I would also point out that I never indicated to Melissa that there was a related Dancer set. I only asked for a quote for Dasher, under the assumption that the prices would be identical. How SP knew to call it Dasher/Dancer is a mystery.

I know, I just found it a bit humorous that they had you up there already. I would have thought they would leave that for confirmed buys but it may just be them trying to keep a grip on both existing work and potential requests so they and the community can see what's potentially scheduled.

As to calling it Dasher/Dancer, I would guess them to be lurking the various forums for such info as a possibility.

zslane · 27 Jan 2016, 21:24

niomosy wrote: ↑I think the GH crowd will take a little bit to mellow out.

Yeah, I'm still feeling a bit singed from a GH co-founder telling me to "f*** off"...

Muirium · 27 Jan 2016, 21:25

Meep meep.

niomosy wrote: ↑As to calling it Dasher/Dancer, I would guess them to be lurking the various forums for such info as a possibility.

Or one of your promotional allies talked to them too! (Not me. I wouldn't be so brazen.)

niomosy · 27 Jan 2016, 21:42

Yeah, that reply from hashbaz was uncalled for. It didn't help the situation at all.

Muirium, you might be right on that one. Wasn't me, though.

webwit · 27 Jan 2016, 22:21

zslane wrote: ↑They want to feel like founding fathers of the custom keycap business, and don't like learning that they are, after all, just customers of a manufacturing service that has much larger clients that they structure their business around.

The founding fathers title would go to OTD anyway. Then exported to the west first by sixty with the first SP group buy outside Korea. When I left gh there was no hashbaz so I doubt the co-founder part, Imav is the sole founder.