SA Dasher & SA Dancer keycap sets (Completed)

[7bit]

Okay, I really hesitate to open up this can of worms, especially in this particular thread, but...

7bit, what do you mean by "...if I did not let them make a 6.25 and 7 units space bar." ???

Before Round 4, there was no 6.25 and no 7 units space bar in their repertoire. These 2 tools opened sphericals up for regular keyset group buys.

[niomosy]

Sounds like you brought SP the business need for producing that space bar. They likely didn't see a need for it, figuring it wasn't going to get much use, until Round 4 came along and pushed for it with cash to back that up.

[MMjacksN]

Will this include support for the Alt Gr layer, and Nordic keys?

[zslane]

There is an ALT GR keycap in the ISO kit, but there are no international alpha kits, sorry. I'm keeping this set very simple.

[MMjacksN]

Aww, too bad. Thanks for the response, anyway.

[zslane]

I am re-posting the full-set renders for the benefit of new readers of this thread. The SA Dasher image shown here is what was sent to Melissa for the price quote. The Dancer set is simply the reverse of the Dasher set, color-wise. If someone were interested in getting both colorways, I recommend getting only one ARROWS set (the one you choose would depend on which color of row3 arrows you can tolerate duplicates of).

SA Dasher:



SA Dancer:

[webwit]

You should post that bit from the owner of SP for extra drama!

[zslane]

Just a quick note: I am awaiting a reply from Melissa regarding pricing of the SPECIALTY kit without the twelve row1 blanks before I post an IC thread on GH.

[livingspeedbump]

Dasher looks incredible.

Let me know if you need any more help!

[niomosy]

Great news. Can't wait to see this one move forward.

[zslane]

I received the quote from Melissa for the SPECIALTY kit without the row 1 blanks. So given that we're talking about an $8 difference, is the kit better off with or without those blanks? I only put them in there in case people were really enamored with the idea of recreating the look of the original Dasher, but that may not be worth $8 to very many people. Thoughts?

Kit	25 sets	50 sets	100 sets
TKL	$118	$90	$76
NUMPAD	$38	$26	$19
ISO	$13	$10	$8
ARROWS	$11	$9	$8
SPECIALTY	$99	$69	$53
SPECIALTY (no row1 blanks)	$91	$61	$47

[Muirium]

None regarding those blanks, specifically.

Overall, I think it may be very tricky to square the circle between demand and prices. Experience watching several GBs take off, tells me that the base TKL kit will dominate here. Numpad will be appealing to a large minority, at a guess maybe 25% the number going for TKL, but the other kits will struggle, as usual. The problem with SP's pricing these days is $100 is a significant psychological ceiling. You'd find demand increasing quite a bit when the base set falls into double digits.

As much as I like the Arrows kit(s), I can only see them struggling unless participation in this GB was huge.

[Dernubenfrieken]

None regarding those blanks, specifically.

Overall, I think it may be very tricky to square the circle between demand and prices. Experience watching several GBs take off, tells me that the base TKL kit will dominate here. Numpad will be appealing to a large minority, at a guess maybe 25% the number going for TKL, but the other kits will struggle, as usual. The problem with SP's pricing these days is $100 is a significant psychological ceiling. You'd find demand increasing quite a bit when the base set falls into double digits.

As much as I like the Arrows kit(s), I can only see them struggling unless participation in this GB was huge.

I agree with what you're saying, and especially that specialty kit is going to kill this set. When you lose a specialty kit buy, you're usually going to lose the whole order. I would absolutely cut the Mac keys, and I would take out the blank R3 and maybe trim some other options.

The arrows I don't see as a huge issue, it's only $10 and if it doesn't reach MOQ its not a dealbreaker for most people.

[benburton]

I think this set is pushing the top end of my budget for my WhiteFox. I don't really care about the blank keys... but it's just one person's opinion.

I'm assuming this will hit 100 MOQ for TKL, 25 MOQ for arrows, and 50 MOQ for specialty... so for me this would cost $156 to outfit my WhiteFox.

[zslane]

We could knock down the price of SPECIALTY by getting rid of all the blanks (including the row 3 blank), and getting rid of the CMD and OPT keys. At that point it is really only addressing layout concerns. However, I am not as familiar with all the layouts the kit is trying to target to know if there is anything else we can do to lower the cost. Like, splitting it up into two kits according to layout types or something.

[7bit]

Here we go:
WARNING -- Box of Pandora! -- Do not open!!!

Spoiler:

zslane_specialty_001.jpg (156.45 KiB) Viewed 4965 times

[livingspeedbump]

Here we go:
WARNING -- Box of Pandora! -- Do not open!!!

Spoiler:

:o

7bit does know his stuff. geeze.

[zslane]

Five more kits plus ala cart spacebars (instead of one SPECIALTY kit). I'd like to know how many people, other than 7bit, think such an arrangement would be vital for the GB to succeed.

[Muirium]

Spacebars: yes. The other stuff: not so much. And those names? Hell no!

People do generally hate to have to buy stuff they don't want. There is a tradeoff, however, in MOQ and operational simplicity. Your kits do look immediately understandable. Your renders are all an experienced buyer needs to know, along with the price. And that simplicity helps newbs too.

But sure, let people buy the spacebars they feel they need. I mean this is an ABS set, so you need at least two: one for using and one without thumb shine for your photos!

[zslane]

Well, I was always planning to have spacebars available on their own.

But I wonder how many potential buyers will pass on the set all together simply because they need some keycaps from the SPECIALTY kit to fit their non-standard layout, but aren't willing or able to pony up another $90. If that kit can't hit MOQ then there is little point in having it at all (in its current form, anyway).

[niomosy]

Well, I was always planning to have spacebars available on their own.

But I wonder how many potential buyers will pass on the set all together simply because they need some keycaps from the SPECIALTY kit to fit their non-standard layout, but aren't willing or able to pony up another $90. If that kit can't hit MOQ then there is little point in having it at all (in its current form, anyway).

I'm sure there will be a few that pass. Despite the growing numbers with some of these kits, when it comes time for buys, those specialty kits don't seem to hit very high numbers. Even the Ergodox kits have had trouble at times on otherwise popular sets.

That said, many are used to working around the layouts of their preferred keyboard and will simply run with it and fill in other spots in some other way.

[7bit]

Five more kits plus ala cart spacebars (instead of one SPECIALTY kit). I'd like to know how many people, other than 7bit, think such an arrangement would be vital for the GB to succeed.

I had been asked. Maybe you can combine some of these.


BTW: What is that 2.25 units SHIFT key doing in the SPECIALTY kit?


Also: If you want to split it into 2 halves, then:
SPECIALTY1: 1, 1.5 and 1.75 units
SPECIALTY2: 1.25 units

[zslane]

Someone asked for an extra 2.25u shift key. I guess there is some alternate layout that uses two of them.

[Muirium]

Just one person? If no one else speaks up in its defence, drop it! The ISO users will have spares to trade, after all…

[benburton]

I think the kits are good as they are. The problem with Dasher/Dancer is that it's two keysets in one GB (presumably). So the options look like:

• Dasher Base
• Dasher Specialty
• Dasher Numpad
• Dasher ISO
• Dancer Base
• Dancer Specialty
• Dancer Numpad
• Dancer ISO
• Arrows

Now... if you want to split it up into something like, say, the current PuLSE drop which accommodates many different user profiles:

• Dasher Base
• Dasher Numpad
• Dasher Planck
• Dasher Tsafox
• Dasher Colevrak
• Dasher Ergodox
• Dasher UK
• Dasher ISO
• Dancer Base
• Dancer Numpad
• Dancer Planck
• Dancer Tsafox
• Dancer Colevrak
• Dancer Ergodox
• Dancer UK
• Dancer ISO

That's a *lot* more child kits, with a lot more individual MOQs to meet. Keeping a lot of stuff in the Specialty kit, while it does make a lot of people buy keys they don't need, *does* ensure that at least the keys most people want exist.

Since I'm planning to put this on a Whitefox, I would ideally buy a Dasher Base + Dasher Tsafox. I wouldn't feel super confident about a Dasher Tsafox hitting a MOQ, so I'm perfectly ok with getting Specialty and Arrows to fill the board.

[zslane]

I like keeping things simple, which is why I threw all the odd stuff into a single SPECIALTY kit. I just don't want it unduly jeopardizing too many sales because it is so expensive. I put the Mac keys in there only because I thought there might be a lot of Mac users who would really appreciate them, but I see that in most group buys that supply them, they end up in their own dedicated kit (same with Windows-specific mods). And I put the twelve blanks in only because the original Dasher had them in place of legended Fn keys and I personally liked the idea of having them as an option for mimicing the original terminal. However, I am not married to either of those blocks of keys.

As for the extra 2.25u Shift key, it was scottc who suggested adding it to cover Leopold FC660C users. So even though only one person mentioned it, presumably there are lots of FC660C users out there? If not, then we could strike that key from the SPECIALTY kit and save another $2 or $3, I suppose.

[Muirium]

The FC660C is not an MX keyboard. It couldn't use these caps.

Presumably he meant the FC660M or whatever it's called. It really has 2x 2.25u Shifts, eh?

[niomosy]

It's really only a few kits if you realize that there are Dasher kits and Dancer kits. Plus some of those kits listed don't really exist at the moment (Planck, Ergodox, Tsafox).

It could be split into two separate buys but given that runs like Penumbra and PuLSE R2 are doing double-alphas, it's got potential. I won't complain either way.

[scottc]

I'm not an FC660whatever user but I thought it'd be a good addition with relatively little extra cost. I think your best bet is always going to be to just mimic 7bit's or matt3o's packs. They really are the masters.

[zslane]

I tried to strike a compromise between the all-in-one approach of Hack'd by Geeks, and the everything-in-its-own-kit approach of 7bit. I basically looked at the Hack'd set and made kits out of each of its "sections", adding ARROWS because Muirium. The SPECIALTY kit is the one I am the least invested in personally, and I only included it because I didn't want to entirely alienate the alternate layout crowd. But I don't know how to cover the majority of them, at the lowest possible cost, without a proliferation of kits. I'm sure I'll get even more input on the subject once I post the IC thread on GH.