F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

[kekstee]

On an F62 I personally wouldn't even consider the default right shift. But with the F77 extra keys it could work. Although I'd probably want to use it like an HHKB and ignore the numblock for the most part... D: DECISIONS! I hate those.

[Muirium]

The default Shift is fine on an F77. Gives you more compatibility with vintage caps. But the F62 really benefits from that HHKB Fn key. My IBM original is a bit of a stretch without it.

[0100010]

Hi there, I have a question, what will be the most flexible layout and will I be able to modify it ?
If I get a F77 with full size backspace and shift - will I be able to later modify it to split backspace and/or split shift ? - assuming I buy the additional flippers/barrels/keys.
Basically, I can't decide which option to choose and would like a way to change my keyboard later if possible...

Options for both barrel placements ...

• top right : 2x (backspace) or 1x + 1x Blue
  Enter : ANSI or ISO Green
  Left shift : 2.25x ANSI or 1.25x + 1x ISO Red

Options for "standard" barrel placement only ...

• Right shift : 2.75x standard or 1x + 1.75x stepped Brown

Option for "HHKB style" barrel placement only ...

• Right shift : 1.75x stepped + 1x ONLY Purple

Crudely illustrated :

Reposting.

[Muirium]

I understand these keyboards, but I don't understand your diagram!

[Spaceman1200]

So if i place an order under the regular offering without the custom or low serial number, it'll still be in the early bird round correct?

[Ellipse]

.

[Spaceman1200]

Yep Spaceman. All orders that are placed by 2/29 will ship in April/May.

Sweet! I'll be placing an order before then for sure!

[courtesi]

I am curious - who is waiting until the final round to place an order? I'll make a note of it so I won't send you a reminder email the last week of the early bird round.

I'm waiting until the last possible moment to order. I want to save enough money to throw in some extra foam/flippers.

[rindorbrot]

I will also probably wait for the second round with order.

[0100010]

I understand these keyboards, but I don't understand your diagram!

Hence the 'crudely' moniker above it - an artist, I am not. The drawing itself is of AT style Model F barrels, in the spacing necessary for whatever width key is appropriate. Take the normal 62 key layout :



Then remove the keys that can be variable, like left shift, right shift, enter, pipe and backspace, add in the potential alternate keys - short left shift, ISO enter, split backspace, standard right shift split and HHKB style right shift split.



Add some color to highlight the various configurations available (as explained by wcass), and you get :

Options for both barrel placements ...

• top right : 2x (backspace) or 1x + 1x Blue
  Enter : ANSI or ISO Green
  Left shift : 2.25x ANSI or 1.25x + 1x ISO Red

Options for "standard" barrel placement only ...

• Right shift : 2.75x standard or 1x + 1.75x stepped Brown

Option for "HHKB style" barrel placement only ...

• Right shift : 1.75x stepped + 1x ONLY Purple

[0100010]

Or, drawn a different way :

[Ludovician]

Should also be able to do 1.5u backslash, 1.25u enter, and a 1u to the left of it right?

Not that I have any intention of doing so because that would be weird.

[gnarlsagan]

Sorry if this has already been answered, but it's not clear to me whether a split left shift requires a modified layout. Will the stick layout allow to split the left shift?

[gnarlsagan]

Sorry if this has already been answered, but it's not clear to me whether a split left shift requires a modified layout. Will the stick layout allow to split the left shift?

[Techno Trousers]

Should also be able to do 1.5u backslash, 1.25u enter, and a 1u to the left of it right?

Not that I have any intention of doing so because that would be weird.

Yes, that's a valid combo too. Being used to an ANSI enter, I would have a tough time with a long reach to enter like that, but for those used to the ISO enter, if they normally hit it on either the bottom or top, that might be a good way to gain an extra usable key. If they hit right between the upper and lower key positions, though, that would not work well.

[0100010]

Should also be able to do 1.5u backslash, 1.25u enter, and a 1u to the left of it right?

Not that I have any intention of doing so because that would be weird.

Yes, that's a valid combo too. Being used to an ANSI enter, I would have a tough time with a long reach to enter like that, but for those used to the ISO enter, if they normally hit it on either the bottom or top, that might be a good way to gain an extra usable key. If they hit right between the upper and lower key positions, though, that would not work well.

Yup.

[0100010]

Sorry if this has already been answered, but it's not clear to me whether a split left shift requires a modified layout. Will the stick layout allow to split the left shift?

Left shift has barrel positions that would allow either the standard 2.25 key or an ISO short left shift (1.25x) and the 1x next to it.

[ramnes]

Any news about the small cases, Ellipse?

[hKing]

Hey there Ellipse,
I am still on the fence...

Can you tell me something about the keycap quality? I heard the ones from Unicomp aren't that great.

Imagine you buy your dream-board with caps like this (look at the green Shift!):

Spoiler:

(Picture borrowed from keyboards-f2/unicomp-legends-t12778.htm ... comp%20rgb)

Can you take some close-ups from your prototypes?

That would be awesome!

[0100010]

Not sure if this helps, but we are all subject to Unicomps keycap dye-sub quality and positioning (including the caps for this project), unless you source caps from older Model M's or F's. I can think of only one other source for caps, and they are not cheap.

[hKing]

That's the reason why I am asking Ellipse for some information.

Imagine you buy a new Model F + shipping + customs to realize that you have to buy another old one + shipping + customs just to harvest the caps ...

[Ellipse]

hKing you can order an original, used Model M key set on the project web site if you are concerned about key cap quality, or an original, used Model F XT key set if you want the absolute highest quality keys. I can have these keys installed on your F77/F62 keyboard at no extra charge. I have ISO style Enter original keys as well as original ANSI keys. They have been cleaned and will look good on your new keyboard.

Here is the new key set I ordered last month from Unicomp (pls disregard colors as they are not accurate):

Uni keys.jpg (382.78 KiB) Viewed 5526 times

[alh84001]

Yup.

Exceuse me for being newbish, but except the keycaps, what else is needed to switch from ANSI to ISO? Does that Return key require a stabilizer bar or something else?

Or let's say you have an HHKB layout in this keyboard. Reverting it back to Backspace/Backslash ANSI combo (so leaving right shift and extra key in place), are there clamps for the stabilizers in place? Do we get the stabilizers with the keyboard or do they usually come with the keys? Which of the keys have stabilisers anyway?

And one other question while we're at it. Why does the space bar have two assymetrically positioned barrels, one in the middle and one on the left?

[Chyros]

Ellipse, just out of curiosity, I have two questions:

-what are the 3x5 keys on the right on the F77 wired to output on your models, and what were they for originally?
-how did you get the rainbow effect on the steel panels? I know only early IBM models had this, later ones just looked plain grey - I want to know what the difference is.

[Khers]

Yup.
at62_1.png

Exceuse me for being newbish, but except the keycaps, what else is needed to switch from ANSI to ISO? Does that Return key require a stabilizer bar or something else?

Or let's say you have an HHKB layout in this keyboard. Reverting it back to Backspace/Backslash ANSI combo (so leaving right shift and extra key in place), are there clamps for the stabilizers in place? Do we get the stabilizers with the keyboard or do they usually come with the keys? Which of the keys have stabilisers anyway?

And one other question while we're at it. Why does the space bar have two assymetrically positioned barrels, one in the middle and one on the left?

On IBM/keyboards the smaller stabilized keys utilize two barrels, with the spring/pivot plate in one and a stabilizer insert in the other:

Thus, changing from a split backspace to a 2u backspace is a matter of exchanging one of the flippers for a stabilizer insert.

[0100010]

Here are the stab insert locations.

ANSI


ISO

[Ellipse]

cross posted thread - I decided to start a separate thread as the other NYC meetup thread seemed to focus on a later meetup. I'd be happy to bring the F62 and F77 for people to try at the later meetup as well, just in case this month is busy for you.

As I mentioned before, I'd like to set up a public meeting for anyone who wants to try out the Brand New Kishsaver F62/Industrial F77 keyboards in person in Manhattan. I also invited two professional tech news writers to stop by and maybe even do a quick first look review (they are interviewing me on the subject of this project).

Who would like to attend? Which days and times would accommodate most people do you think?

I was thinking Thursdays in the early evening, so how about Thursday 2/25 at 7 PM? I think Mondays, Fridays, and weekends are too busy for most people.

Can anyone volunteer a venue to host the meetup? Otherwise we can just meet in one of those indoor Privately Owned Public Spaces in the city.

I'd also invite attendees to bring their own keyboards for comparison if interested.

Chyros you can have the 15 keys in the right block configured any way you want. Xwhatsit's open source GUI allows you to do this. I assume they were originally for different bank functions, like to load a menu, open a particular screen or function, or look up account information. The originals had that block with relegendable keys and paper inserts so those keys could be configured any way they wanted. This was before the days of the GUI on IBM equipment, so I guess some banks wanted dedicated extra keys.

[Ellipse]

Also I reported a few days ago that PayPal approved me to continue using my PayPal account and that they would release my funds.

A new update: Unfortunately the PayPal agent I spoke with was not accurate in what he told me - the one I spoke to a few days ago said my case was approved and the funds would be released "soon." Recently I spoke with another agent and he said that I would have to ship the goods before the funds are released, which I have agreed to do. This will not be a problem for me.

I have contributed and will continue contributing my own funds to production because I believe that Model F's are the best keyboard for those who want the best typing experience. It is fine if the funds to cover these expenses are paid back when the keyboards ship.

To eliminate PayPal for this project and prevent all the future funds from being frozen until they ship, I have applied for a merchant account and expect to use that in a week or so - they negotiate the reserve amount (if any) ahead of time so that all funds will not be frozen. I will still accept PayPal though if someone insists on it.

[Hypersphere]

@Ellipse: Despite the issues you are having with PayPal concerning this somewhat unusual situation, I would prefer to pay via PayPal. Thanks.

[Ellipse]

ok Hypersphere - unless you're ordering in the next few days we'll probably need to do a manual PayPal invoice once you've finalized all the choices you would like.

If the PayPal button is gone when you are on the site to place your order, feel free to message me your requests and I will place the order for you and send over the invoice by PayPal.