How Can You Repurpose Monterey Blues?

[seaworthy]

Can you all offer some advice on what PCBs might be available that would work with Monterey Blue switches. As I understand it the SKM variety like this are not compatible with native Alps connections or pinouts.

I’ve got a Chicony / Cirque board with Monterey Blues. It’s got cheap caps and even when I place some AEK caps on it, the sound is only slightly improved (although the feel is greatly improved). The thing is I don’t really like the layout of the board either. It’s got an ugly big ass Enter (some big asses are better than others), and it doesn’t really approximate my preferred layout (delete above enter, Control left of A—HHKB). So cutting the board down isn’t really a desirable option (not because of the work, but the layout I’d be left with).

I know there are a number of PCBs and plates that will accommodate Alps switches, but I have no idea what can be done with Monterey Blues… Anyone know of a solution?

Monteray blue switch.png (385.22 KiB) Viewed 11013 times

Cirque layout.png (491.03 KiB) Viewed 11013 times

[ohaimark]

Ayyyyyy I recognize that board! I think I sold it to you.

[Chyros]

I'm not sure Montereys are compatible with ANY PCBs that aren't SMK-based Oo .

[Touch_It]

I've done a bit of looking in the past. I think the only solution would be to design a PCB specifically for these switches. It hasn't been done before AFIK.

[jacobolus]

Can you all offer some advice on what PCBs might be available that would work with Monterey Blue switches. As I understand it the SKM variety like this are not compatible with native Alps connections or pinouts.

Design your own PCB, or hand wire. You can use most Cherry MX plates with square holes.

[seaworthy]

Seems like that might be the best thing @jacabolus.

[Blaise170]

I think people would actually be interested in an SMK compatible PCB. Then one could simply source Alps caps from Tai Hao or from donor boards.

[seaworthy]

Well, clearly I'm in when someone starts the GB. I've love to try these switches on a well-designed board.

[Touch_It]

I'd love these switches in a solid board with a good layout and caps. Idk why I hadn't thought of it before. :/. Maybe one day I'll find one to tear down. Already have one I'd rather not.

[Findecanor]

The plate holes are the same size and dimension as Cherry MX, so you maybe plates for Cherry MX could be repurposed for SMK "Montereys"
I don't know if the switches would snap to the plate though ...

[seaworthy]

@Findecanor Thanks for the information. Just to be sure I understand what you're saying...it it that the cutout holes in an MX plate are the same size/shape as an Alps switch but you're not sure if the pinout of the SMK switch will fit?

[Findecanor]

No, the plate holes for SMK and Cherry switches are 14×14 mm square. Alps don't fit in those holes.
With Cherry switches (and sometimes with Alps - if the very fragile snaps are intact), you could snap the switches to the plate and solder wires/diodes directly to the switch pins instead of using a PCB. I don't know if you could do that with SMK.

The pinout of SMK, Cherry and Alps are incompatible with one-another. Some enthusiast PCBs support both Alps and Cherry - but none supports SMK also because SMK pinout is too different.

[XMIT]

FWIW 14mm and 9/16 inch are not the same thing. I've got access to a 9/16 in square punch but the holes it cuts are too sloppy for an Cherry switch. It fits but not snugly and the clips don't engage. Oops.

[jacobolus]

SMK switches absolutely clip into most plates designed for Cherry MX switches. I’d recommend a ~1.2–1.3mm thick (or 18 gauge) steel plate though. 1.5mm / 16 gauge might be too fat, or at least is right on the edge of what they can clip to.

Alps switches do not work on the same square holes.

[seaworthy]

@jacobolus -- that's great news. Thanks! Just to confirm, will SMK switches also likely fit into most Cherry MX PCBs?

[Blaise170]

SMK switches have the nearly the same dimensions as Cherry MX but the pinout is completely different so MX PCBs won't work.

[Muirium]

Indeed. You could hand wire, like this:

workshop-f7/the-apple-m0110-today-t1067.html

But it's a lot of work. Fiddly, too. Nothing impossible, but a different scale of project to simply assembling a PCB. I have asked for Monterey support in PCBs already, but none of the designers are interested. Maybe they have a point — no supply of new switches — but Montereys are brilliant and well deserve a community PCB. The donor boards aren't too hard to find, yet are so crap compared to their switches they're begging for customs!

Good to hear the plates aren't a problem. What about stabs? Go with AEK caps and Apple's stabilisers?

[jacobolus]

Hand wiring isn’t that hard. It takes a few hours the first time you try it, and it’s kind of fun. Once you’ve done it a few times, it’s only like twice as slow as soldering to a PCB. Huge time saver for a prototype compared to doing a full PCB design/production cycle.

If you’re using an MX plate, you should stick to MX/Costar-style stabilizers, and the associated keycaps. Find compatible stabilizer keycap mounts on various cheap boards from the 80s, or on Signature Plastics Alps caps.

If you want to use Alps-made keycaps from e.g. an Apple keyboard, you might need a custom plate.

[seaworthy]

Hand wiring isn’t that hard. It takes a few hours the first time you try it, and it’s kind of fun. Once you’ve done it a few times, it’s only like twice as slow as soldering to a PCB. Huge time saver for a prototype compared to doing a full PCB design/production cycle.

If you’re using an MX plate, you should stick to MX/Costar-style stabilizers, and the associated keycaps. Find compatible stabilizer keycap mounts on various cheap boards from the 80s, or on Signature Plastics Alps caps.

If you want to use Alps-made keycaps from e.g. an Apple keyboard, you might need a custom plate.

@Jacobulus if I were hand wiring, would a M0116 plate house Monterey Blue switches? Perhaps there's more to it...but I would also have the stabilizers and caps as donors.

[Matt_]

I have asked for Monterey support in PCBs already, but none of the designers are interested. Maybe they have a point — no supply of new switches — but Montereys are brilliant and well deserve a community PCB.

The problem of PCBs, as opposed to hand-wiring, is that they restrict the layouts you can use, but if a few people are interested (to reduce the cost per PCB) and can agree on a few criteria (board size & which layout(s) they want to see implemented), there is no reason we couldn't do something. Heck, I'd gladly help draw the PCB file if that can make a few members happy! We could make it a community (non-profit) project and slap a DT logo on it. Or use the profits to fund DT, or further projects. And then, take over the world!

[jacobolus]

If you want something in the shape of the M0116, buy one of these:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/301862008680

The “made in Taiwan” type have tactile white SMK (“monterey”) switches.

The only downside is that the double-shot keycaps they used have stems which are too fat, causing SMK switches to bind. If you can find one of the “made in Japan” orange Alps version of the same keyboard, the dyesub keycaps from those work much better with SMK switches, while the double-shot caps work fine on Alps switches.

[gogusrl]

Mmm, my favorite layout. To bad the caps are crap. I got a variation of monterey blues that I keep saying I'm gonna put to work. Had no idea they fit in an mx plate, I was getting ready to butcher a Dell.

[seaworthy]

If you want something in the shape of the M0116, buy one of these:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/301862008680

The “made in Taiwan” type have tactile white SMK (“monterey”) switches.

The only downside is that the double-shot keycaps they used have stems which are too fat, causing SMK switches to bind. If you can find one of the “made in Japan” orange Alps version of the same keyboard, the dyesub keycaps from those work much better with SMK switches, while the double-shot caps work fine on Alps switches.

@jacobolus So are these the caps you're thinking of that might accommodate the Monterey Blue switches? I'm hoping I can transplant the SMK blues onto this board (are those SMK whites--along with a sod farm from the '80s).

IIgs_caps.png (855.8 KiB) Viewed 10629 times

mb_switch.png (814.49 KiB) Viewed 10629 times

[jacobolus]

Yeah, if you want you can desolder all the white (tactile, non-clicky) switches, and solder in your blue (clicky) switches.

Unfortunately, the keycaps have very fat mounting stems, which bulge the plastic outward and cause these SMK switches (both blue and white types) to stick sometimes.

Funny enough, the Alps-made dyesub keycaps from the “Made in Japan” version of this keyboard work fine with SMK switches, while the SMK-made doubleshot keycaps from the “Made in Taiwan” keyboard work just fine on Alps switches.

So if you can get one of each board, I recommend swapping the keycaps between the two. (There’s a very yellowed one on ebay right now http://www.ebay.com/itm/231840112434 but better ones come up every few weeks.)

(Also requires swapping either the stabilizer wires or the stabilizer keycap inserts, as they use different inserts of different heights for no particular reason.)

[seaworthy]

@ jacoboulus Thanks again. You are a deep pool of keyboard knowledge.

It’s interesting these caps have a “fat” stem as they seem looser fitting than Alps caps (so do the caps on the Chicony where my Monetary blues currently reside).

This board came with three bad switches: delete and + and - from the numpad. I haven’t pulled the switches apart yet, but they simply don’t return after being pressed. Wonder if its a bad click leaf and wonder if the location of these switches is indicative of previous binding or just something else.

[jacobolus]

It’s interesting these caps have a “fat” stem as they seem looser fitting than Alps caps

The mount stems are a different shape, if you compare to other Alps-mount keycaps. They’re fatter but shorter, more squarish.

This board came with three bad switches: delete and + and - from the numpad. I haven’t pulled the switches apart yet, but they simply don’t return after being pressed. Wonder if its a bad click leaf.

No, the switches are fine. The problem is the keycaps. This is the sticking problem I was talking about. Try putting some random other Alps cap on those switches, and it’s likely they’ll go up and down without issue. (You might have to squeeze the sliders a bit with your fingers to return them to their original shape, if they’ve been sitting bulged out for a couple decades.)

I haven’t tried, but you might be able to use the keycaps from an M0116 on one of these boards, and vice versa, if you don’t have one of the Made in Japan IIGS boards lying around.

[seaworthy]

I haven’t tried, but you might be able to use the keycaps from an M0116 on one of these boards, and vice versa, if you don’t have one of the Made in Japan IIGS boards lying around.

Yes, I tried a dozen or so M0116 caps on the IIgs and they work great...excepting the M0116 Enter and Delete touch...and the remainder of the IIgs' top row is 90 degrees to all the other caps (oddly the Delete switch on the top row is mounted in normal orientation).

I adore M0116 in salmon. The custom 60% Yoe just completed (posted on GH) is from a salmon M0116s I turned donor. Yoe is a craftsman.

[jacobolus]

and the remainder of the IIgs' top row is 90 degrees to all the other caps

Oh good point. Scratch that one then.

[JinzoDefiler]

Are they electrically the same to alps? Cause if its an issue of fitting in the mounting holes you can always buy a pcb drill bit and dril; them to fit. If you can go this route make sure you buy extras cause you will break these bits if you use a hand drill. I use a piece of wood and rest the edge of the drill on that vertically. makes the hole straight and you wont put as much tension on the bit.

https://www.adafruit.com/products/2118
All youd have to do after is make scrape a little solder mas off.

[Muirium]

Switches are switches. Alps and MX are both simple "ohmic" switches (as Xwhatsit calls them, to distinguish them from capacitative switches like Topre). That means they conduct when pressed down, and insulate when they're not. Nothing complex about it.

But drilling? What??