Prototyping the next thing

[matt3o]

I believe it was 199 as a kit, no switches.

PS: Will there be ISO compatibility?
Is this the size you have in mind?

I'd like to keep it under 200 all included. We'll see.

Hopefully I will be able to release both a 60% and a 65% keyboard.

[shreebles]

I'd like to keep it under 200 all included. We'll see.

Hopefully I will be able to release both a 60% and a 65% keyboard.

Sounds pretty good! Though I am already a customer of your previous project. But, I'm sure I'll have no trouble selling that one should I not like it in the end.

How about breaking the mold and adding the extra keys to the *left* of a the 60% block instead? Sixties are already right-hand heavy. Why add to that lopsidedness? Why follow!

Great Idea. I don't mind a cluster on the left, even if it's a little bigger. But I want mah arrows on the right >: (

[Khers]

Spoiled!
2539C64A52DF22F3039DC9

See how the J key almost lines up with the middle of the keyboard? Argh! Assymmetry!! Home position is way off to the left, and so will be a TrackPoint.

How about breaking the mold and adding the extra keys to the *left* of a the 60% block instead? Sixties are already right-hand heavy. Why add to that lopsidedness? Why follow!

Interesting idea Mu. I did a quick and dirty test in keyboard layout editor and came up with this. I ran out of ideas towards the right of the bottom row, but maybe something like this:

keyboard-layout.png (34.79 KiB) Viewed 6048 times

It might be a problem for some that the left edge of space is pushed further to the right. I don't know if that causes any issues with split spaces and whatnot.

[Muirium]

Inverse ISO left Shift: I like it!

Think 1.25u on the bottom row too, and you're on to something. Plus an extra mod on the right. Because left arrows = right side mods when using them.

[Khers]

With a 6u (or 3+3u) spacebar and some 1.25u mods, I could add two extra mods:

keyboard-layout (2).png (35.55 KiB) Viewed 6026 times

6u spacebars are not that common though. And neither it 3u... Remove .25 on one of the mods to fit a 6.25u spacebar and it starts to look like too many keys of similar size on the bottom row imo...

[Muirium]

Yeah. As I always say: everything between 60% and TKL is a compromise. I'm happy with 60%, of course, so perhaps I'm not the ideal person to lead design on a 65%. With an HHKB style Fn layer, I wouldn't need the arrow keys. I'd just use it as a 60%. I even do that on my TKLs when the Fn key is easy to reach.

[gogusrl]

Am I the only one that doesn't use the homing keys but the edges of the alpha block for homing when touch typing ? I'd never be able to use a layout like that.

Split the spacebar, throw a 1-1.5 FN key in the middle and you have left handed arrows on fn+wasd and any other combo you can imagine.

[Khers]

No, I don't think the layouts are ideal, I just had to see what such a layout would look like. For me, personally, there is only the one layout to rule them all – HHKB – and while I like the idea (and dare I say it, the look) of arrow keys in the bottom right corner on 65/75% layouts, I'd probably just stick with the HHKB arrow cluster on a layout like the ones I posted .

[pyrelink]

Oh man. A bluetooth alps board would be pretty incredible.

Assuming the Alpinefox project is basically being merged with this one, I really liked this layout.



And again I will always prefer the more interesting and different layouts. Plain old 60% poker clones have been done to death.

[gogusrl]

Poker clones and other "regular layouts" have been done to death because it's an activity based mainly on muscle memory and that's hard to retrain. How would you like it if they started swapping the break / throttle pedals on cars because the current one has been done to death. I know it's an extreme example but I think it makes my point

I remember reading an ArsTechnica article about the latest thinkpad keyboard and one comment said it perfectly :

It's been almost 30 years since a colleague suggested to me that all the keyboard designers in the world - except one, any one - should be shot.

article link => http://arstechnica.com/staff/2014/01/st ... hem-worse/

[pyrelink]

Nothing inherently wrong with the standard 60% layout, and I am not wishing to change it. However when it comes to projects like these, I think we all have learned what we prefer in a keyboard layout and I figure we use this as an opportunity (like the WhiteFox) to tackle a layout or design that hasn't really been done before. There are plenty of 60% standard layout boards that have been done in the past, plenty to buy off the shelf, and plenty more in the future.

I am just casting my vote (which if there isn't enough interest in an alt layout then it won't matter anyway, due to a large MoQ) for trying something new.

[matt3o]

I agree with you pyrelink, but if you want to reach big numbers with high quality you need to compromise.

I'll add every features I can fit in to make the keyboard "different"... split spacebar, trackpoint, bluetooth, alps, ... I believe we have plenty to be happy about

If we want to do something outrageous we can always go DIY. Honestly I like the layout above quite a bit myself, but how many would we sell of them? 10-20 maybe If there's interest I'm definitely available at designing something like that as a fun side project.

Regarding the usb-to-bt switch we further investigated the situation and it might be possible to dodge the patent but still we can't ship LiPo batteries.

[vivalarevolución]

Great ideas! I don't care much for RGB or wireless, but the other features you mentioned (trackpoint, Alps, split space bar, programming innovation) all seem like practical and useful features.

[ramnes]

Will it have PBT SA keycaps?

[Wodan]

Maybe talk to Jack when it comes to plenty of space bar options. I was just building my Atomic in the Lepton DSA layout and realized that the only option to mount the 2U spacebar is off-center to then FJ keys. The bottom row on the atomic PCB looky like it's been shot by a shotgun ... There's just no more room for additional mounting points.

[matt3o]

Will it have PBT SA keycaps?

don't worry I'm working on that too. (I should have the 3d models soon)

[mastermachetier]

I am just throwing a crazy idea out there although Ill back this what every layout and I love the HHKB with the 2.5 space.

keyboard-layout (5).jpg (50.46 KiB) Viewed 5832 times

[vivalarevolución]

I am just throwing a crazy idea out there although Ill back this what every layout and I love the HHKB with the 2.5 space.

keyboard-layout (5).jpg

I recommend throwing this idea out to Ortholinear Keyboards, if anywhere.

[mastermachetier]

I am just throwing a crazy idea out there although Ill back this what every layout and I love the HHKB with the 2.5 space.

keyboard-layout (5).jpg

I recommend throwing this idea out to Ortholinear Keyboards, if anywhere.

Not a bad Idea, it needs some work for sure before its ready as well.

[beltet]

I still have to check but it might be feasible to have the keyboard charging via USB but still communicating via bluetooth. Meaning that you never actually use it in USB mode even if the cable is connected, but at least you can charge the battery. Problem is that we cannot ship lipo batteries, so the user would need to buy that.

Personally if the keyboard goes for 2-3 months over AA Eneloop, I would be fine with that. But anyway let's see what we can do.

Anyway I need to design the case first to get a quote.

If you would like to go with LiPo batteries you could use 18650 batteries as they are available almost everywhere. But they can be hard to fit into a small case. Otherwise AA's is the best in my opinion. Available everywhere, cheap and safe to ship.

About the charging. I would not have any problem with only USB power. As long as the keyboard still works as intended.
Dont know how those zippy cuircuts works but if you connect your keyboard to a phone charger for example, would not the keyboard think its connected to a computer and turn of the bluetooth? Or maybe they recognize the USB data and tirn off the bluetooth. Anyway don´t think it would be any problems with seperate charging.

[obfuscated]

Features for wireless:
- bluetooth 4
- long battery life

A colleague of mine often jokes that these two doesn't go hand in hand.
If you want long battery life, then you need to design custom protocol

[Dan]

My filco minila air lasted weeks on end with two aa batteries. And i think it had BT3.0, BT4.0 (BLE) is even less power hungry.

[matt3o]

my wife uses a minila (BT3 like Dan says) and she goes approx 2-3 months on eneloop. So if done right I believe we can reach nice results.

[sphinx]

will we be able to get it in europe without having to go through massdrop ?

[Wodan]

will we be able to get it in europe without having to go through massdrop ?

Oh yes please ...

[TuxKey]

* Which means distribution by MassDrop.

Oh dear that means $200 + 31% on top to get it inside the DMZ AKA the EU..
(agree with Sphinx on that one, Love massdrop but they really need to find a solution for us in the EU)

* bluetooth 4

sitting behind my MacBookPro hooked up to a 30inch lcd pannel..my trackpad cursor jumps across my screen like a frog on steroids... apparently the big screen somehow interferes with the bluetooth signal ...So do i care for bluetooth ? nehh but ok if it has a on/of switch why the heck not..

* batteries

as mentioned is use an Apple trackpad but what i did not mention was that it uses two AA batteries. and i use AA and AAA batteries all over the house..Never had any issues..
And it’s not like i’m running to out each time..i got a bunch of Eneloop batteries and they last me for months...

Only difference in my case is i use a quality charger ( MH-C9000 ) and always charge them at 50% ratio to the power.. So if it’s a 1200MaH i charge them at 600MaH until 100% full..
No fast charging crap and plugging them in a wall socket without knowing how fast they are charging..

When apple came out with a new trackpad with a rechargeable batterie i passed..
Because i trust myself to manage charing my batteries way more than trusting someone else to do it..Also a company needs to balance the needs and wants of the manny over functionality and longevity.

So does a build in batterie add to the value ? not forgetting the hassle of shipping anything with a batterie ?? i believe it doesn’t. That said a batterie indicator of some sort wil help a lot with the question of needing a spare batterie or not when your on the go..

btw kind of reminds me of the “Ultimate Hacking Keyboard”.. That sounded like an awesome keyboard. Also because they had an EU assembly option so no added crap for us..
Their goal was 2k and they reached almost the 3k point ..

So i’m curios to read how they do on production and how people like their keyboard.

Of course it’s not wireless..
Speaking of wireless, a switch to turn of bluetooth and go with a cable would be handy. (oops i mentioned that one already)

* 65% layout..

heck why not add that 1% or just a little more 5% hahaha...

* the Case

Just what you need..Perfect would be enough room to house a couple extra LED’s
on the right side.. Or place does LED’s under a key that you can see on your right side..
No idea how one would accomplish that hahahah...

Don’t u just hate putting on a third party key-cap set and not seeing your caps-lock light anymore? well i do ..Filco really has that one licked..

For me this is the dream layout..All the keys i need..small and no hassle with different key-cap size..

70% dream layout

75_Keyboard_Layout.jpg (261.94 KiB) Viewed 5693 times

i guess bluetooth would be the cherry on top LED's are ok.. But i'm more of a function vs looks kind of guy.
But LED's could also add to the function if they are programmable Like show you the layer your on and much more..

Good luck with this project sounds awesome.. your previous oner the WhiteFox was one for the history books..w
I'm sure the next one will be as awesome ..

Take care...

[Muirium]

External battery chargers are horseshit. Charge by USB!

I've got a couple of battery modules now for wireless projects. (One is for my Bluetooth SSK.) They're very simple to handle and install. They clip in, no soldering needed. Install once and run for years.

[Halvar]

Also, a LiPo with its 3.7 V is more efficient to power 3.3 V electronics than the 1.2 V of a rechargeable AAA cell. However, this of course means that the hardware has to handle charging, too, which makes it more complicated.

[matt3o]

thanks for your great feedback TuxKey.

Personally I'm not a fan of integrated rechargeable batteries, to me the optimal scenario would be:

- 2xAA batteries (AAA don't have enough juice probably)
- USB does NOT charge but you can run the keyboard on USB

But as you can see from the comments above, people like what they like

A LED indicating battery life is a good point. That won't be an issue with the RGB version, we have plenty of LEDs there On the wireless one I have to find a nice solution.

will we be able to get it in europe without having to go through massdrop ?

if there's enough interest. yes

[Halvar]

Well it depends on battery life with the controller you come up with. If you really manage to get battery life up to several weeks, I agree that AA batteries are a fine choice.