Foam and foil: Like 'em or not?

[snuci]

Here's a new thread about foam and foil key switches. There seems to be polarizing opinions from some but let's figure out from the keyboard community how many people really like or dislike them.

If you aren't sure what foam and foil is, check out the Wiki article here: wiki/Foam_and_foil

Keyboards with foam and foil switches can be found by digging into this: wiki/Category:Foam_and_foil_switches

Post you comments in this thread.

[snuci]

My opinion is that these are actually quite good. Because these are on vintage keyboards in the late 70's or early 80's the key caps that are on them are usually quite stellar. The foam density is the deciding factor because it cushions the down force and the external spring pulls the key stem back up. I like it quite a lot.

[Muirium]

I haven't tried them. So there's my vote.

But I would have worded the options differently. They're a touch extreme. Say this was about MX brown. I don't like them much at all. But they're clearly far from the worst thing ever made. (Correct answer: Cherry MY.) Where's the option for that?

[snuci]

But I would have worded the options differently. They're a touch extreme. Say this was about MX brown. I don't like them much at all. But they're clearly far from the worst thing ever made. (Correct answer: Cherry MY.) Where's the option for that?

If you consider the scale:
Yes, one of my favourites = +2
Yes, they're pretty good = +1
Not sure, I have never tried them = 0
No, not particularly fond of them = -1
No, they are the worst things ever made = -2

You would fall under -1 or "No, not particularly fond of them"

I could have added one more level on the positive and negative side but it's only an opinion. You either really like them, like them, hate them, really hate them or have no opinion because you haven't tried them. If you tried them and are indifferent then you probably won't pick any of the options because you don't care

[Muirium]

You underestimate indifference. The modern way of life!

[Chyros]

The BTC aren't all bad, especially when they have my Mitsumi sleeve mod on them. As a whole they have quite a lot going for them.

The Key Tronic version appears to be MUCH worse though.

[seebart]

You're one of the few people like XMIT that have more knowledge on foam and foil Chyros! I still say it's a minor switch to beginn with. Today that is, in the 1990's it may have been much more widespread.

The Key Tronic version appears to be MUCH worse though.

I only have this to go on not sure if that's even representative:

keyboards-f2/key-tronic-corp-serial-no- ... y%20tronic

[snuci]

You're one of the few people like XMIT that have more knowledge on foam and foil Chyros! I still say it's a minor switch to beginn with. Today that is, in the 1990's it may have been much more widespread.

The Key Tronic version appears to be MUCH worse though.

I only have this to go on not sure if that's even representative:

keyboards-f2/key-tronic-corp-serial-no- ... y%20tronic

It is NOT the normal Key Tronic foam and foil switches so I don't think that's representative Seebart.

[Chyros]

You're one of the few people like XMIT that have more knowledge on foam and foil Chyros! I still say it's a minor switch to beginn with. Today that is, in the 1990's it may have been much more widespread.

The Key Tronic version appears to be MUCH worse though.

I only have this to go on not sure if that's even representative:

keyboards-f2/key-tronic-corp-serial-no- ... y%20tronic

The sliders are very different from normal KT F&F. They look like their magnetic reed sliders. I haven't tried KT magnetic reed yet, but they're bound to be much better than their F&F switch.

I'm not sure yet why the BTC and KT versions of F&F switches feel so different. I only have one of each to go on of course, and although they both appear to be in representative condition, it's always possible that that's skewing the results. If I run into some more F&F boards I'll post some more.

I genuinely would encourage people with the BTC version to try out the Mitsumi mod though. Mitsumi hybrid is quite snappy, and makes the BTCs feel very tactile. Shouldn't be that far off from Topre really.

[seebart]

Well the problem is I have no other foam and foil to compare. That switch feels pretty OK actually, I would rate it 6 out of 10. The single LED switches feel much nicer than the rows. But these are quite early foam and foil from what I understand.

[Chyros]

Well the problem is I have no other foam and foil to compare. That switch feels pretty OK actually, I would rate it 6 out of 10. The single LED switches feel much nicer than the rows. But these are quite early foam and foil from what I understand.

Yes, they're probably from the time KT started phasing out their magnetic reed switches in favour of the cheaper foam and foil ones.

[seebart]

Right and I should be fair and point out that XMIT meant the latter 1980 / 90's foam and foil keyboards which I cannot judge but I do believe various users here reporting that these feel lousy.Point for XMIT.

[Scottex]

I have one BTC tactile and have tried a linear one (not very fond of linears).
They are pretty good as long as the foam is in good shape.

[seebart]

Alright thanks for the feedback Scottex, there are bound to be different opinions on this anyway. After seeing Chyros reviews I'd like to try the BTC version. They don't show up here too often or I'm simply missing them.

[Blaise170]

I want to point out that I wasn't bashing on anyone who likes the switch, just that I think they are all pretty horrible. I think it's unfair to make the claim that all I was representing the general consensus, although my experience with several boards is that they are not only not very nice, but I wasn't able to give away any of them for the cost of shipping!

[seebart]

That's fine Blaise170, I don't even own one so I cannot judge. You'll never get everyone to agree 100% on the "feel" of any switch.

[snuci]

The issue with "foam and foil" is that there is a component (the foam) that breaks down over time. Some disintegrate, some turn gummy and compress until it is not longer operable. It's because of this that even if you do try a foam and foil switch, you don't really know what it's like unless you have new foam. Because these are 30+ year old switches, with 30+ year old foam, there will be a huge variation in opinions.

I've opened many foam and foil keyboards and the Hyperion, for example, looked like it was new until I started using it and keys started to fail because the foam was compressing and staying compressed. Once I renewed the foam, it was a completely different switch.

[XMIT]

At this point I'll just repeat what snuci has already said. The main parts of the foam and foil experience are the condition of the foam, the cleanliness of the sliders, and the quality of spring or rubber sleeve used for tactile feel (linear or tactile). Some are better than others.

At best these are extremely smooth linear switches with a soft landing.

All are based on capacitive sensors, which are in general, really great!

My main hatred of these switches is that no one buys them. I sent about 100 foam and foil boards *back* to the recycler after they sat in my garage for eight months. I can't pay people to take them. They often need a ton of work, and when they do, they're barely better than vintage MX black.

Sure, there are some really neat vintage foam and foil boards out there - like some older Wang terminals, or older Burroughs terminals from the mid-80s, or the Apple Lisa keyboard.

[Chyros]

Found another 3 Key Tronic foam and foil boards today. All I can say is; NOPE!

[snuci]

Found another 3 Key Tronic foam and foil boards today. All I can say is; NOPE!

If you weren't on the other side of the earth, I would send you some new foam pads just for review purposes.

[seebart]

Found another 3 Key Tronic foam and foil boards today. All I can say is; NOPE!

Did they look like this Chyros?

Spoiler:

IMGP1139.JPG (961.59 KiB) Viewed 5712 times

[keycap]

I'm interested in trying out BTC Foam and Foil, but only if the board is at some local recycling center for a very cheap price. Otherwise, I won't bother.

[eekee]

Well, that cleared up my questions on foam & foil. I had an f&f 'board about 18 years ago -- much nearer to when it was new. I didn't have anything that could work with it, nor the skills to make my own controller; I couldn't quite cut it with board design and programming at the time. The key action reminded me of the keyboard of an RM Nimbus computer I got to use for about an hour in 1989. The RM Nimbus only needed the lightest of touches to register, I think you only had to depress the keys 2 or 3mm, although they had generous travel length below that. I was fascinated, but if you accidentally clipped an adjacent key, that key would register even if you barely felt it!

seebart, that keyboard looks beautiful!

[czarek]

Depends on implementation. To be honest the only ones I have at hand are the Amiga keyboards by Mitsumi.
Linear (mostly used in later A500s) ones are awful. Like typing on wet newspaper - even worse than Cherry MY. Same switch but with buckling rubber, as used in A2000s and CDTVs is way better. Funny thing is that internally those keyboards are exactly the same, the only difference is that A500 has a spring (linear) and A2000 has buckling rubber cup
There is also very nice type I found in one of my A600s. I'm not sure if it's Mitsumi or BTC (has a mount very similar but not compatible with Alps). I can feel it's foam and foil by the way it bottoms out, bot before that there is amazing tactility. It's much nicer than any Cherries, not quite as sharp as Alps but kind of similar to what Topre is. Obviously without the nice bottom out. It's not my favourite switch of all, but indeed, very nice, especially for foam and foil.

[eekee]

"Like typing on wet newspaper" sounds dreadful! I almost want to offer sympathies for your terrible experience. lol~

Looking at the Key Tronic picture on the wiki, I see the foam is quite thin. The 'board I owned had long foam cylinders, I remember them as about about an inch long! I figured the foil met the pcb early in the switch's travel, which is why it reminded me of the RM Nimbus. There weren't any splayed end stops as the pictured Key Tronic has. I think the end stop was on the top of the shaft, but it could have been the cylinder surrounding the foam hitting the PCB. I imagine the key feel was very different to that Key Tronic's.