The Alps Trilogy Part 1: Apple M0110A review (Alps SKCC tall cream)

[Chyros]

Finally, finally, FINALLY! Here is part 1 of my Alps Trilogy. In this trilogy I discuss Alps switches in keyboard reviews; how they started off, how they were designed, and how they evolved over time. Today, we look at the forerunners of the SKCL/SKCM series; Alps SKCC. Hope you enjoy it, and check back next week for part 2, where we look at how Alps moved up from here!

[seebart]

What initially blew me away when I first got my M0110 is the thickness of the plastic case and the sound and feel of the SKCC Alps and I don't mean the ping. Yeah the PBT's are epic on this.

Love the epic intro!

[Chyros]

What initially blew me away when I first got my M0110 is the thickness of the plastic case and the sound and feel of the SKCC Alps and I don't mean the ping. Yeah the PBT's are epic on this.

Yeah, this board and its switches are so well-built in so many ways...

Love the epic intro!

Thanks man!

[Redmaus]

rubbermaid sex dolls

I really cracked up during the butter part. Informative and hilarious!

And yeah I notice the tactile bump on alps linear too

[seebart]

Yeah notice how Chyros is getting more creative and technical with his videos now, soon we'll have keyboard reviews with full special effects and plenty of comedy added which I will enjoy!

[HzFaq]

No matter how loud you think the ping is going to be on these, it's worse in real life. I was legitimately shocked at just how much mine rings...it's even worse/better/ringier once you get up to speed and start typing quickly as you get a kind of resonance which I'm pretty sure if you typed fast enough would cause Scanners-like head explosions.

Nice video review though, I liked the "except they cut off some of the useful bits" line .

[jacobolus]

Friendly note: when you say “if you use it normally, like this, your wrists will be at quite a steep angle”...

... your “normally” is an incredibly uncomfortable and dangerous way to use any keyboard. In general, you should not be resting any part of your palms or wrists on the table while typing. Move that keyboard closer to your torso, maybe pull your chair a bit closer to the desk, and relax your shoulders and upper arms, and you should be able to comfortably “float” your hands above the keyboard while typing. If you need an external palmrest, there’s a good chance something is dangerous about your typing form. Stay safe out there, and don’t give yourself RSI.

The steep angle is designed for standard office furniture of the 17th–20th century (and most furniture of the 21st), where the height of the chair and desk are designed to be the right height for writing with pen on paper. A keyboard for use with such furniture needs to be steeply angled in order to be functional. Forearms while typing should be parallel to the keyboard top, with the wrists in a straight and neutral position. For good typing form in such context, I recommend watching videos of mid-20th-century secretaries typing on typewriters. In general they have great form and avoided injuries, because they were highly trained professionals, unlike us untrained monkeys tossed in front of computer keyboards today. (US Navy typewriter training video explaining good form: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCpZ3CP7IAs#t=6m32s)

Some recent office furniture is designed to have a taller chair and/or a lower desk, in which case a less steeply tilted keyboard is more appropriate. An unangled (or even slightly negatively sloped) keyboard is also appropriate if you type with the board resting directly on your lap.

[Muirium]

Yup. Your form's awful, Chyros. Don't try suggesting it as standard practice!

I happened into the floating style quite naturally. I like my boards flat on the desk, and close to me, so my arms can move freely. You use a wider array of muscles and movements that way. Less repetitive motions, so less exposure to RSI, in my case certainly.

The only time I flop my palms down is when I'm typing on a laptop, lying in bed! Which isn't smart and I keep pretty minimal.

Give the floating style a go. It also makes adapting to new layouts much easier. Another weakness of your reviews!

[jacobolus]

Otherwise, great review though!

I’m curious what you’d think of Lowpoly’s M0110 which he destiffened and depinged. workshop-f7/the-apple-m0110-today-t1067.html

[jacobolus]

Also, by the way: the original “Rubbermaid” product was a rubber dustpan, in the 1930s. Makes a bit more sense than a “rubbermaid” palmrest made out of plastic and foam.

[Muirium]

Rubbermaid isn't nearly as ubiquitous over here as in America, so the name stands out more. I was surprised just how much of my brother's utilitarian stuff like washing baskets and food containers has their branding on it. Those things are typically generic here.

[Chyros]

rubbermaid sex dolls

I really cracked up during the butter part. Informative and hilarious!

And yeah I notice the tactile bump on alps linear too

Yeah notice how Chyros is getting more creative and technical with his videos now, soon we'll have keyboard reviews with full special effects and plenty of comedy added which I will enjoy!

Haha cheers guys, ever since the RT8255C+ video I've tried to lighten up the style of the videos a bit, putting in a joke here and there if I can, as well as adding in more effects like this intro . I'll keep doing this in the future, but I don't want to force anything; I'll only do it when it feels natural to do so.

No matter how loud you think the ping is going to be on these, it's worse in real life. I was legitimately shocked at just how much mine rings...it's even worse/better/ringier once you get up to speed and start typing quickly as you get a kind of resonance which I'm pretty sure if you typed fast enough would cause Scanners-like head explosions.

Nice video review though, I liked the "except they cut off some of the useful bits" line .

Haha cheers mate xD . And thanks again for the converter .

Friendly note: when you say “if you use it normally, like this, your wrists will be at quite a steep angle”...

... your “normally” is an incredibly uncomfortable and dangerous way to use any keyboard. In general, you should not be resting any part of your palms or wrists on the table while typing. Move that keyboard closer to your torso, maybe pull your chair a bit closer to the desk, and relax your shoulders and upper arms, and you should be able to comfortably “float” your hands above the keyboard while typing. If you need an external palmrest, there’s a good chance something is dangerous about your typing form. Stay safe out there, and don’t give yourself RSI.

The steep angle is designed for standard office furniture of the 17th–20th century (and most furniture of the 21st), where the height of the chair and desk are designed to be the right height for writing with pen on paper. A keyboard for use with such furniture needs to be steeply angled in order to be functional. Forearms while typing should be parallel to the keyboard top, with the wrists in a straight and neutral position. For good typing form in such context, I recommend watching videos of mid-20th-century secretaries typing on typewriters. In general they have great form and avoided injuries, because they were highly trained professionals, unlike us untrained monkeys tossed in front of computer keyboards today. (US Navy typewriter training video explaining good form: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCpZ3CP7IAs#t=6m32s)

Some recent office furniture is designed to have a taller chair and/or a lower desk, in which case a less steeply tilted keyboard is more appropriate. An unangled (or even slightly negatively sloped) keyboard is also appropriate if you type with the board resting directly on your lap.

Normally I float my wrists a little, yes. But the angle of this board is still too steep for me, hence the wrist rest. Tbh I don't think I type anywhere near enough to contract RSI xD . But thanks for the heads-up .

Otherwise, great review though!

I’m curious what you’d think of Lowpoly’s M0110 which he destiffened and depinged. workshop-f7/the-apple-m0110-today-t1067.html

Oh yes, I remember seeing that a long time ago. Well, it takes away the plate ping and lightens the switches; really pretty much the only criticism I had of the original. And it adds NKRO of course. So that looks pretty great to me .

[jacobolus]

> the angle of this board is still too steep for me

If you have a very low desk or very tall chair, such that the angle is too steep, you could prop something under the front end of the keyboard, to lift the angle closer to flat. For example, I do this with most keyboards when using a standing desk, because I prefer having my elbows at a slightly wider than 90° angle, with the keyboard top either flat or slightly negatively sloped. (At some point someone gave me one of those Grifiti palmrests, which I find to be useless for its intended purpose, but great as an external keyboard foot.)

If your have a “normal” height desk and chair, then the angle is probably just fine if you bring the keyboard closer to your torso and sit up straight, with your shoulders and upper arms relaxed.

[seebart]

Yes it is quite steep, even for a 1980's keyboard. I have not used mine over extended periods of time. I'm assuming the M0110A and the M0110 are the same in this sense. From our wiki:

wiki/Apple_M0110

800px-Apple_M0110_profile_view.jpg (39.25 KiB) Viewed 8504 times

[jacobolus]

That tilt was the standard for electronic typewriters and computer keyboards in the 1960s–1970s. It only went out of style when German office equipment standards outlawed anything tall or beautiful in the 1980s (basically driving switches like Cherry M5–M7, Micro Switch hall effect, Alps SKCC, IBM beam spring, etc. etc. out of the market by mandating low-profile switches along with low-profile keycaps in dull colors). Of course, the same German standards also mandated desk heights which were inappropriate to use with keyboards following their guidelines. As far as I can tell they didn’t have any particularly good evidence to back up any of the guidelines. Germans just love their arbitrary rules. <3

[Chyros]

That tilt was the standard for electronic typewriters and computer keyboards in the 1960s–1970s. It only went out of style when German office equipment standards outlawed anything tall or beautiful in the 1980s (basically driving switches like Cherry M5–M7, Micro Switch hall effect, Alps SKCC, IBM beam spring, etc. etc. out of the market by mandating low-profile switches along with low-profile keycaps in dull colors).

Indeed, and that will be part of next week's video!

[seebart]

I doubt the German office equipment standards outlawed anything "beautiful". I'm pretty sure they did not go by that measure. And why would the rest of the world to cave in to this. I am aware that there was a change of the office equipment standards though. I don't know much about the details. You don't particularly hate Germany by any chance? One part I find hard to believe is that the rest of the entire world then just accepted that without objection, I mean Germany is a small country.

[jacobolus]

They insisted that keyboards and keycaps must be of a neutral grayish color, falling between specified light/dark values (I think beige was okay, but certainly nothing brightly colored, white, or black). They were worried about potential eyestrain if there’s too much glare off your white keycaps, or something. If you look at the ways an IBM Model M keyboard differs from a beam spring keyboard, almost all of those differences were mandated by the German standard.

At some point in the 90s, people started ignoring parts the relevant standard and making keyboards with black keycaps.

No, I don’t hate Germany. I think Germany is great, and would love to travel there sometime. Regional/national cultures all have their own weird fetishes. For Texans, it’s bigness. For Italians, it’s waving their arms around. For Germans, it’s following and enforcing nitpicky rules.

[seebart]

Right I believe all that (even tough it makes no sense) but like I just added to my post what I cannot understand is why the rest of the entire world then just accepted that without objection. Why was it even implemented and not just ignored?

For Germans, it’s following and enforcing nitpicky rules.

There is some truth to that but I do think you have an aversion which is OK. I don't mind.

I found "EN ISO 9241" which is discribed as international human/computer ergonomic standart. That can't be it.

http://www.iso.org/iso/iso_catalogue/ca ... mber=38009

[jacobolus]

The relevant DIN standard is whatever version of DIN 2137 was introduced in ~1982. At some point most of the points in the DIN standard were picked up by other European countries’ standards, and later by a comparable ISO standard. I’m not sure if it’s that one per se.

If you read old computer magazines from 1983–1984, there’s a bunch of discussion of the then-new DIN requirements. e.g. https://books.google.com/books?id=d-tPd ... 122&dq=DIN

Although the DIN regulations may seem like a step in the right direction, they are not based on extensive human factor studies. “There’s no research support for the 30-millimeter height standard. It just doesn’t make any sense,” says Green.

More generally, this article doesn’t really discuss it, but the proper keyboard tilt depends on the relative height of desk and chair (and the height of the typist), and the DIN standard mandates the wrong angle for the height, given their desk recommendation (angle must be “less than 15°”, but in practice most were lower still). It’s a fundamentally broken standard which mandates bad design. It’s a shame that computer vendors all felt forced to adopt it. I’m not sure whether they thought it would be impossible to sell non-compliant keyboards, or if they just thought it would be a good marketing message (“Our keyboard meets German standards” etc.), but for whatever reason within 2–3 years most keyboards adopted the standards.

You know Signature Plastics’s DSA and DCS keycap profiles? The D in those stands for DIN (“DIN spherical all-rows” / “DIN cylindrical sculptured”, respectively).

There’s of course nothing inherently wrong with a <15° angle on the keyboard, or an overall low-profile keyboard, if the rest of the context is appropriate. For someone with an adjustable under-desk keyboard tray, a very low desk, or e.g. a tall saddle-style chair, the low-profile flatter keyboard can be the right design.

In general though, human bodies are highly variable, and IMO ergonomics standards should be mandating individual adjustability and choices rather than particular one-size-fits-all criteria. Imagine how much better we’d have all had it if standards instead mandated adjustable-height desks, adjustable height chairs, computer displays mounted on flexible articulating arms (maybe impractical in the days of CRTs, but should be a no-brainer today), giving all office workers a choice of multiple types of chairs, and a mandate to allow workers to choose a split tented keyboard as an alternative to one-piece keyboards.

* * *

Anyway, Chyros, sorry to derail your thread.

[seebart]

I’m not sure whether they thought it would be impossible to sell non-compliant keyboards, or if they just thought it would be a good marketing message (“Our keyboard meets German standards” etc.), but for whatever reason within 2–3 years most keyboards adopted the standards.

That's exactly my question though, such a fundamental change must have promted some discussion / criticism. Were talking about many western countries at the time including the larger ones and what about all the hardware manufacturers including the big ones like IBM? They just all blindly complied? I find that very hard to believe.

Imagine how much better we’d have all had it if standards instead mandated adjustable-height desks, adjustable height chairs, computer displays mounted on flexible articulating arms (maybe impractical in the days of CRTs, but should be a no-brainer today), giving all office workers a choice of multiple types of chairs, and a mandate to allow workers to choose a split tented keyboard as an alternative to one-piece keyboards.

I totally agree. I'll read up on DIN 2137, specifically the implementation of this. There must have also been a transition period.

Indeed, and that will be part of next week's video!

I'm sure you'll have all the answers in detail to this including credible sources then.

[OleVoip]

More generally, this article doesn’t really discuss it, but the proper keyboard tilt depends on the relative height of desk and chair (and the height of the typist), and the DIN standard mandates the wrong angle for the height, given their desk recommendation (angle must be “less than 15°”, but in practice most were lower still). It’s a fundamentally broken standard which mandates bad design. It’s a shame that computer vendors all felt forced to adopt it. I’m not sure whether they thought it would be impossible to sell non-compliant keyboards, or if they just thought it would be a good marketing message (“Our keyboard meets German standards” etc.), but for whatever reason within 2–3 years most keyboards adopted the standards.

The 15°/30mm recommendation first appeared in a 1977 study at Berlin Technical University, performed under the umbrella of a state programme called “Humanisation of the working life”. AFAIK, only RAFI produced keyboards that fulfilled it at that time. In 1978, the trade unions picked up the rule and demanded it to be followed. In 1980, the Berufsgenossenschaft (a nongovernmental body that regulates work safety) made it an official safety rule with a transition period ending on January 1st, 1985. After that date, keyboards for desktop use that could not be adjusted to a maximum home row height of 30 mm were not considered safe for work anymore. Safety regulations really force manufactures to comply with a standard.

Since a safety regulation may only prescribe what already is considered "good engineering practice in safety matters", a corresponding standard was needed for it to actually become effective. First drafts of DIN 66234 part 6 were published in 1982, just in time that they could become final by the end of 1984. These are those 2-3 years you mentioned. (DIN 2137 deals with the layout, not with the dimensions.)

There is a common misunderstanding about this 15° / 30 mm rule that also reflects in your post and the article you mentioned. The rule has been set under the premise that the desktop height has been optimally adjusted for handwriting – if you use a separate lower table for working at the computer (or have the keyboard embedded), larger angles and row heights are allowed.

[jacobolus]

The 15°/30mm recommendation first appeared in a 1977 study at Berlin Technical University, performed under the umbrella of a state programme called “Humanisation of the working life”.[...]

Thanks so much for filling in context here!

Do you know of any books / papers / websites explaining this history, preferably in English?

DIN 66234-6:1984-12:
http://www.beuth.de/en/standard/din-66234-6/1161599

Apparently superseded by ISO 9241-6:1999
http://www.iso.org/iso/catalogue_detail ... mber=16878

Unfortunately these things cost a fortune to read. Maybe I’ll try to find an illicit copy somewhere.

There is a common misunderstanding about this 15° / 30 mm rule that also reflects in your post and the article you mentioned. The rule has been set under the premise that the desktop height has been optimally adjusted for handwriting – if you use a separate lower table for working at the computer (or have the keyboard embedded), larger angles and row heights are allowed.

My key point was that the angle should actually be steeper for taller desks. For the desk and chair of the height of the German standard, 15° should be the minimum angle, and IMO 25–30° is more appropriate.

For a low-angled keyboard, the specified desk/chair combination are much too far apart. What ends up happening in a setup like this (at least, I’ve observed this frequently in walking around various offices) is that people can’t type comfortably with their upper arms relaxed, because the keyboard is too tall and too flat, so they end up either slouching backwards and holding their arms extended in front of them, with arms/palms resting on the table, or they end up hunching forward with elbows sticking out to the side. Usually their wrists end up at an uncomfortable angle anyway. Then they think they need an armrest / palmrest in order to type without killing their wrists.

A nearly flat keyboard works great when you put it on your lap though.

My impression is that the people writing the standard / working on the studies that led to it didn’t really understand the anatomical reasoning behind keyboard angles on existing typewriter/computer keyboards.

[seebart]

Thank you for elaborating OleVoip, if I understand you correctly you are talking about the "15°/30mm recommendation" within Germany. The way I understood jacobolus many other countries including the USA also "adopted" this "15°/30mm recommendation" at some point? Do you have any details on that or a link with further information? Thanks.

It’s a shame that computer vendors all felt forced to adopt it. I’m not sure whether they thought it would be impossible to sell non-compliant keyboards, or if they just thought it would be a good marketing message (“Our keyboard meets German standards” etc.), but for whatever reason within 2–3 years most keyboards adopted the standards.

I guess ISO/IEC 9995 is relevant here:

The project of this standard was adopted at ISO in Berlin in 1985 under the proposition of Dr Yves Neuville. The ISO/IEC 9995 standard series dates to 1994 and has undergone several updates over the years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO/IEC_9995

http://www-01.ibm.com/software/globaliz ... s/iso.html

[jacobolus]

I think ISO 9995 corresponds to DIN 2137, specifying aspects of key arrangement rather than other workstation features like keyboard tilt/height, chair and desk size, etc., which are in DIN 66234 / ISO 9241.

The way I understood jacobolus many other countries including the USA also "adopted" this "15°/30mm recommendation" at some point?

I could be wrong about this, but my impression was that Germany (followed by various European countries), adopted this standard, and then computer vendors made their hardware compliant, even without any international or American standardization at the time. Later it became and ISO standard, but I don’t think there’s any legal requirement to abide by these features in the US. I’m not at all an expert on the legalities of keyboard design though, so that could be totally off base.

[seaworthy]

Epic production value. Very nice! I typed many college papers on a similar keyboard. In fact, I just picked up a Macintosh Plus with keyboard for $2 on eBay for display in my office (but it even works). Looking forward to parts two and three.

Regarding keyboard angle and desks and chairs…it’s very difficult to buy a modern desk with that encourages good typing posture. And I’m a little surprised it’s not more of a topic of discussion here.

You can do better with a custom-made desk, but the static-positioned keyboard trays are still not ideal. I finally broke down and decided to put in a Humanscale keyboard tray that will allow me to dial in typing angle. It won’t match well with the wood desk aesthetics, but it will make typing a lot more enjoyable.

There’s an eBay seller offering new Humanscale “keyboard system” that retails for more than $250 for about $65.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/351644553982?_t ... EBIDX%3AIT

[jacobolus]

I like having an adjustable-height desk (motorized), and a highly adjustable chair (I use a HÅG Capisco chair, but there are various other good options). Then I can easily change the setup to match my mood and the task.

[seaworthy]

I like having an adjustable-height desk (motorized), and a highly adjustable chair (I use a HÅG Capisco chair, but there are various other good options). Then I can easily change the setup to match my mood and the task.

+ 1 on the HÅG Capisco chair!