Alps Appreciation

[Tuntematon]

IMO a Matias linear switch is improved by swapping springs with a Matias clicky switch. (Indeed, both switches are improved that way.) The linear switch still ends up not quite stiff enough, but much closer to the right stiffness.

35g does seem absurdly light for the average typist. Can you define right stiffness? For me, that would be around 50g.

[jacobolus]

Can you define right stiffness?

The right stiffness for a linear switch for me is approximately green Alps (though something stiffer after the actuation point might work in conjunction with a beeper). The right stiffness for a clicky switch is approximately clicky SMK (“monterey blue”).

I don’t think force at one point, whether measured at actuation or at bottom-out, is an adequate metric for keyswitches. I would propose using “work” (i.e. force integrated over time) instead, either work to actuation, or work to bottom-out. But I don’t think work is the right metric either; depends too heavily on typing technique and particular setup.

[Hak Foo]

I am almost certain it's a training thing. I found MX Blue and recently Fujitsu Peerless (picked one up NIB, to see if I liked it as much as I did in the late '90s) a little light, but I spent quite a few years riding BS and white ALPS.

[Tuntematon]

I think you have the right idea. This is why I'm interested in trying Gateron Yellow. It has the right actuation weight (50g) and the amount of "work" required to reach bottom has been reduced, with a bottom of only 65g.

[lootbag]

Thanks for the feedback so far everyone, much appreciated.
Yellow ALPS sounds like a viable alternative for me over greens.
Although, I am still doubtful how much smoother they can get over lubed vintage blacks and gateron yellows which I use on a daily basis.

[Redmaus]

If the Zeniths you found don't work out for whatever reason, I can hook you up with another set of yellow alps.

[Blaise170]

I put Marias linears into my M0116 and I like it. YMMV

[lootbag]

If the Zeniths you found don't work out for whatever reason, I can hook you up with another set of yellow alps.

Thanks for the offer!
I might take you up on your offer.

I put Marias linears into my M0116 and I like it. YMMV

Decisions decisions...

[XMIT]

This is a work in progress: a KBparadise V60 with orange Alps, PBT dye sub keys from various Apple Alps boards, and custom front printed legend stickers in the correct Univers 57 oblique font.

Next up:
- dye the Escape key red.
- find color matched keys for the bottom row.
- add an old Apple logo.

IMG_20160317_113623.jpg (567.37 KiB) Viewed 5946 times

[Tuntematon]

This is a work in progress: a KBparadise V60 with orange Alps, PBT dye sub keys from various Apple Alps boards, and custom front printed legend stickers in the correct Univers 57 oblique font.

Next up:
- dye the Escape key red.
- find color matched keys for the bottom row.
- add an old Apple logo.
- drop it into an Apple M0110 case

It would take some work but it would be awesome.

[XMIT]

> - drop it into an Apple M0110 case

Way too tall. No thanks.

I was really hoping to find a space bar or other key caps for the bottom row from a donor somewhere.

[Blaise170]

As far as I know, Apple never used a standard bottom row.

[Tuntematon]

> - drop it into an Apple M0110 case

Way too tall. No thanks.

I was really hoping to find a space bar or other key caps for the bottom row from a donor somewhere.

That doesn't stop people from going crazy over SA keycaps. Form over function, it's only an input device right?

And yeah, colour-matched standard bottom row Mac keys, I can't think of anything.

[jacobolus]

As far as I know, Apple never used a standard bottom row.

Where by “standard” you mean “IBM–Microsoft”. DEC, Sun, SGI, Texas Instruments, Tektronix, Symbolics, Atari, Tandy, NeXT, etc. never used the Windows 95 layout either.

More realistically, the Windows 95 bottom row is a not-quite clone of the Apple Extended Keyboard bottom row, but with the Alt/Meta keys reversed because they wanted to maintain backwards-compatibiilty with the prior DOS-centric layout.

Microsoft GUI software was originally designed for the Macintosh OS, which used the Command key for all the most important keyboard shortcuts. On IBM machines, there was no such key, so Microsoft used the Control key for that instead, causing big conflicts with existing uses of the Control key. But at least when the "Control" key was next to the A, it was reasonable enough to use it for common shortcuts. When IBM moved Control to the corners with the Model M extended 101-key layout, keyboard shortcuts were turned into an ergonomic disaster. Microsoft’s addition of a Windows key years later was too little, too late to fix the problem.

[Blaise170]

Yeah by standard I mean the bottom row that probably 90% of all modern keyboards use today, excluding laptop keyboards. Although the gaming companies by and large use the "non-standard" where Windows and FN are 1u keys instead of 1.25u.

[Halvar]

On IBM machines, there was no such key, so Microsoft used the Control key for that instead, causing big conflicts with existing uses of the Control key.

What existing uses would that be? IIRC, one of the advantages of Windows on the PC was that it introduced application-independent shortcuts for the first time. In DOS, every application used whatever their programmers saw fit.

About the only application-independent use of Ctrl before Windows that I can think of was the strange feature of reaching the first 32 ASCII characters, which are control characters, by pressing Ctrl and the Nth letter. For example Ctrl+G would make the computer beep (ASCII 7 = BELL), Ctrl+M would yield Carriage Return (ASCII 13), or Ctrl+I would be Tab (ASCII 10). Which makes no sense at all in a Graphical UI.

[jacobolus]

by standard I mean the bottom row that probably 90% of all modern keyboards use today, excluding laptop keyboards.

You mean desktop computers which run Microsoft Windows.

Which is like 45% of world computer market share if you include laptops as computers, 20% if you include tablets, and even lower if you include smartphones.

[jacobolus]

On IBM machines, there was no such key, so Microsoft used the Control key for that instead, causing big conflicts with existing uses of the Control key.

What existing uses would that be? IIRC, one of the advantages of Windows on the PC was that it introduced application-independent shortcuts for the first time. In DOS, every application used whatever their programmers saw fit.

Trying to run UNIX or DOS terminal-oriented software on Windows, or log in to UNIX terminals with a remote shell, is a huge pain in the ass, because the Control key is used by both the terminal software and the GUI wrapper. (It’s an even bigger pain on Linux, since Linux is mostly a Windows clone, copying most of the poor design features from Windows without a second thought, but Linux relies on using UNIX terminal-based software much more heavily than Windows does.)

It would have been much easier for Microsoft if keyboards had included more modifier keys in 1985–1995. By the time they added the Windows key, the conventions were already hugely inconsistent from app to app, with many shortcuts double- and triple-overloaded, and many common actions needing ridiculous illogical shortcuts (Alt-F4 anyone?). The Windows key is mostly useless in practice. It gets maybe 3–4 shortcuts that a small minority of people use from time to time, and everyone else just gets pissed at it when they accidentally trigger the Start menu.

All computers suck with keyboard shortcuts in webpages, because there are no clear guidelines at all, and different platforms needed the shortcuts for different things, so webpages are constantly breaking standard behavior on multiple platforms in order to add their own ad-hoc buggy keyboard support. This is one of the things that makes web-based communications software like forums, webmail, social network sites, chat apps, etc. dramatically shittier than native apps for the same function. I really wish people would use standard communication protocols (IRC, XMPP, SMTP, NNTP, etc.) instead of bullshit webapps for everything, so that participants would be able to use their own preferred clients, instead of being shoved headfirst piles of javascript widget poop. Alas.

Anyone interested in this subject should check out the design of the Canon Cat word processor. Incredibly well structured, logical, extensible, user-friendly command system. Amazing for standard text processing tasks.

[Redmaus]

> - drop it into an Apple M0110 case

Way too tall. No thanks.

I was really hoping to find a space bar or other key caps for the bottom row from a donor somewhere.

I might have a spacebar for you. Lemme check around

Does a yellowed one work for you? You know how to retr0brite so I figure its no problem.

[XMIT]

I can maybe steal the bottom row from a Dell AT101W, or if someone has a Tai-Hao Olivette set they can part with, that would work too.

[Tuntematon]

It amazes me that keys below the space bar are not really a thing. Such a logical place to put some extra easy to reach thumb buttons.

[Redmaus]

Accidentally pressing them when you mean to press the spacebar comes to mind.

[Tuntematon]

If you're a lazy flipped space bar typist then it's out of the question. If you can type properly then they just need to be the right height and angle. A small gap between rows, maybe .25u, could help with this too.

[jacobolus]

The trick is to have extra-tall keycaps for the “spacebar” keys.



Even better if you can make them a bit wider. e.g.:

[jacobolus]

If you're a lazy flipped space bar typist then it's out of the question.

People with “flipped” spacebars aren’t lazy. They just have a bad desk/chair setup and/or the wrong keyboard shape (especially tilt). At least 70% of “keyboard enthusiasts” have terribly uncomfortable typing style. The general computer-using public is much worse than that.

The standard keyboards wouldn’t be a problem if everyone had to go through a professional secretary training program. But unfortunately most of us don’t have that luxury. (Or if office furniture were designed for use with computers instead of handwriting.)

[Ray]

Two different kana per key? *mind blown*

[seebart]

Nice keyboard you got there jacobolus, interesting bottom row if I've ever seen one.

[jacobolus]

This is HaaTa’s. A couple more pictures: https://www.flickr.com/photos/triplehaa ... 408828231/

Obra (Keyboard.io founder) also bought a pair of them on ebay a while back, at my suggestion. I decided I wouldn’t actually have a use for a Japanese word processor, so I left the other to go to someone else.

[lootbag]

Any idea what keyboard this is?
I think it says "Northgate Computer Systems" on the top left but could not figure out the model.
Pretty sure it has blue ALPS but not sure if it is genuine or knockoffs ALPS.

[itzmeluigi]

I actually just bought that exact board from the listing the other day It should arrive sometime next week.