K Type Mechanical Keyboard + Input Club

[lekashman]

Hello everyone!

Time is certainly flying by on the K Type Development, and we are rapidly finalizing the design. Our company, Input Club, is comprised of a small team of keyboard people working to push forward the quality of enthusiast grade products. We've made some pretty cool keyboards in the past, including the Infinity Keyboard, the Infinity ErgoDox, and our collaboration with matt3o, the WhiteFox.

Our next big thing will be our very first stock ANSI layout tenkeyless keyboard, called the K Type. It's been talked about on DT a few times, but there wasn't really a dedicated thread to discuss progress and feedback.

Until now!

So, if you have strong opinions on the K Type or want to discuss keyboard features, please let us know here!

The members of Input Club that post are myself (lekashman), HaaTa, Parak, and Over^Kill. HaaTa invents the firmware and software, Parak makes the PCB work, and Over^Kill does all the mechanical aspects.

[KRKS]

To quote my reply from the GH thread.

Nice damage control thread.

For those who missed it, until jdcarpe pointed it out, the official channel for contacting the team with ideas was neither of the communities(r/mk, DT or GH) or even MD, but a page on ideahunt.io . I guess the mechanical keyboard community doesn't give enough profit anymore, so you tried to quietly move to bigger potential cash pools.

This is literally the best proof MD themselves for the words in my signature.

The signature:

The increasing power of Massdrop WILL kill the community group buys - don't come crying to me after it happens when you're too stupid to see it now. Join me in saving the community!

MD = NO $, NO EXCEPTIONS

[akryl9296]

I guess it wouldn't do you much good to actually quote their or other users' replies?

I’d like to give you the background and context on our partnership with Idea Hunt and hopefully answer a few questions. Elia, the founder of Idea Hunt thought we would be a great fit for his new platform and helped put together the entire campaign. He didn’t ask us to pay anything, and we thought it would be a fantastic opportunity for people to vote and suggest specific features for our upcoming project. Idea Hunt is definitely great for tracking votes on micro-improvements in a way we hadn’t seen implemented before.

After launching that campaign, we read a post by jdcarpe asking why there wasn’t a thread for the KType on Geekhack, so we decided to put together a series of threads addressing the topic. Prior to this, we mostly just connected directly with our friends on GH/DT/Reddit via IRC, Skype, or through the large meetups hosted by Jacob Alexander (HaaTa). We initially didn’t post the threads on the keyboard communities because we operate our own forum at https://input.club/forums and we thought that people who wanted to suggest things to us would either do so personally or use our dedicated space.

If you’re interested in learning more about our work and partnerships with the different keyboard community members, to see how closely involved we are I’d invite you to check out the AMA we did with r/mechanicalkeyboards here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyb ... nput_club/

Or check out the meetup we organized on GH/DT/Reddit that had over 100 people in attendance last month:

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=79 ... msg2032816

If you have suggestions for other ways we can work more closely with keyboard enthusiasts, we are all ears, and this thread is the place to do it!

I don't really care to address your beef with Massdrop, but your ire toward Input Club is insanely misplaced.

All their designs and software are Open Sourced for the community to be able to build on. HaaTa has been a contributing member of the community for a long time, and if you think he's suddenly worried about cashing in I think you haven't really been paying attention and are just looking to grind your axe a little more.

[webwit]

This is immoral (as it invalidates all of the terms at will in case of a shit storm) and illegal in the EU (where a notification and right of cancellation for the customer is obligatory):

Right at the f*cking end of the small print at https://www.massdrop.com/terms

MODIFICATION OF TERMS OF SERVICE

You acknowledge and agree that Massdrop may, in its sole discretion, modify, add or remove any portion of these Terms of Service at any time and in any manner, including the terms of Massdrop membership, by posting revised Terms of Service on the Site. You may not amend or modify these Terms of Service under any circumstances. The current version of these Terms of Service is available at http://www.massdrop.com/terms. It is your responsibility to check periodically for any changes we make to the Terms of Service. Your continued use of this Site after any changes to the Terms of Service means you accept the changes.

So if you give them your money, be sure to read their small print every day, because they may change it so you promise your soul to the devil, or less dramatically, to remove your rights in case of a fuckup.

If you write up something like that as a company, you're a pile of shit. It's the middle finger to the rights of their customers, neatly hidden where (almost) no one will read it.

[matt3o]

how did this go into an anti-MD crusade?

lekashman simply asked for suggestions for a keyboard that will be completely open sourced. HaaTa is one of the most important members in the keyboard community, he is in the Olympus together with Hasu and very few others... I find it quite unfair the cold welcoming to their new product.

[ohaimark]

Webwit is right about the TOS being scummy! Normally I disagree with his website bashing, so this is serious.

The "modify, add or remove" clause is standard in most TOS agreements.

MD: "You acknowledge and agree that Massdrop may, in its sole discretion, modify, add or remove any portion of these Terms of Service at any time and in any manner, including the terms of Massdrop membership, by posting revised Terms of Service on the Site."

Google: "We may modify these terms or any additional terms that apply to a Service to, for example, reflect changes to the law or changes to our Services. You should look at the terms regularly. "

The weird part about MD's TOS is the changes' retroactive nature: "all prior agreements [incl. the TOS, which is an agreement!], letters, proposals, discussions and other documents regarding the matters herein are superseded and merged into these Terms of Service."

Here's an excellent article explaining why you'd probably win a class action suit against them if they ever decided to dick around with you.

http://www.oncontracts.com/using-wordpr ... rotection/

[matt3o]

over here they have to notify you of any update in the terms and you have 30 days to terminate the contract with no penalties, but I understand in the US is different.

again, I don't think this is the kind of response Andrew wanted with the original post.

[ohaimark]

You're right, matt3o. This is pretty toxic. But when has a post ever stayed on topic at DT?

[mSSM]

Sorry to be nitpicky, but:

is comprised of a small

No, it is not “comprised of”. Either your team comprises people, or alternatively consists of people. In any case, it most definitely is not “comprised of” people.

[Scarpia]

This thread is officially derailed. I am going to invoke Godwin's Law: people who derail perfectly good threads are just like Hitler.

(Read: matt3o is right. Let this thread get back on topic please)

[shreebles]

over here they have to notify you of any update in the terms and you have 30 days to terminate the contract with no penalties, but I understand in the US is different.

Matteo, does that mean they have other rules to follow with us european customers? Do we have more rights?

Sorry to be nitpicky, but:

Why do you excuse yourself for being nitpicky, when you obviously don't care whether your nitpicking contributes to the thread or not?

[kbdfr]

Back to derailing mode:
In my eyes nothing justifies posting real names of forum members even if they are to be found elsewhere.

I'd like to add that a thread is not the property of whoever opened it
but develops according to whatever its contributors see fit to post.

[matt3o]

over here they have to notify you of any update in the terms and you have 30 days to terminate the contract with no penalties, but I understand in the US is different.

Matteo, does that mean they have other rules to follow with us european customers? Do we have more rights?

sorry I do not understand if it's a rhetorical question

[shreebles]

It is a genuine question.

You said that "over here they have to notify you", I wonder how that applies to doing business as a european with an american company? They are on US soil so I guess despite this difference we give up our rights when we do business with MD.

[matt3o]

I'm pretty sure they should comply to EU legislation if they want to do business here.

[vivalarevolución]

Perhaps it is time to start a Massdrop crap thread to focus all these greviences in one place. Like a protest box or something.

[Halvar]

Why? Threads by people interest checking future Massdrop "drops" are exactly the right place to do it, aren't they?

[vivalarevolución]

Why? Threads by people interest checking future Massdrop "drops" are exactly the right place to do it, aren't they?

Sorry, I was being slightly facetious.

Lekashman's customer service robot style doesn't help any credibility here. Talk like a human being, not a PR man.

[lekashman]

I don't work for Massdrop, you know that right? I did about a year ago, but as of now I am just a part of Input Club, so instead of it being robotic customer service, it's just my increasingly Midwestern politeness.

[jacobolus]

Back to derailing mode:
In my eyes nothing justifies posting real names of forum members even if they are to be found elsewhere.

Who is having their real name posted? You mean HaaTa & al.? Come on...

I'd like to add that a thread is not the property of whoever opened it but develops according to whatever its contributors see fit to post.

In particular, develops into an off topic shitpile whenever anyone feels like, right?

[kbdfr]

Back to derailing mode:
In my eyes nothing justifies posting real names of forum members even if they are to be found elsewhere.

Who is having their real name posted? You mean HaaTa & al.? Come on...

What is this "Come on..." supposed to mean? I don't know HaaTa other than by his forum name. If he thinks everybody on DT should know his real name, he should post it himself.
By the way, you don't even mention your country of residence in your profile. Why so shy?

I'd like to add that a thread is not the property of whoever opened it but develops according to whatever its contributors see fit to post.

In particular, develops into an off topic shitpile whenever anyone feels like, right?

Yes, of course.
If it's just a single post, no harm is done. If not, it shows that what you call "an off topic shitpile" matters to at least some posters.

[vivalarevolución]

I don't work for Massdrop, you know that right? I did about a year ago, but as of now I am just a part of Input Club, so instead of it being robotic customer service, it's just my increasingly Midwestern politeness.

I've lived in this corn covered, post industrial rust belt most of life, perhaps I've grown slightly immune to the politeness and take it for granted. My apologies.

For all the Massdrop bashers, how about you get together and start your own company for facilitating group buys with a different terms of service, if you have that big of a problem with the company. Much easier said than done, obviously, but it would be way more productive than the bashing that seems to take place every time Massdrop is mentioned.

[jacobolus]

What is this "Come on..." supposed to mean? I don't know HaaTa other than by his forum name. If he thinks everybody on DT should know his real name, he should post it himself.

He has directly associated his name and nickname numerous places around the internet, including:
github https://github.com/haata
flickr https://www.flickr.com/photos/triplehaata/
keychatter https://www.keychatter.com/2015/08/12/i ... alexander/
his own website http://kiibohd.com
reddit https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyb ... nput_club/
the input club website https://input.club/author/haata
his "whois" info on IRC, accessible to anyone in the #deskthority channel
etc.

In addition, the person posting here is someone he’s directly working with. Even if there could have been some screwup info “leak”, that’s entirely between the two of them.

By the way, you don't even mention your country of residence in your profile. Why so shy?

My native land is the “making stuff together” and “ergonomics” subfora on geekhack. I only come here when I want to rile up silly folks who use keyboard layouts that are even stupider than IBM Extended QWERTY/ANSI, and native English speakers who talk and spell funny.

I filled out a bit of a profile for you though. I’m not quite sure how many interests I am supposed to list, so I tried to limit it to only things I’ve thought about extensively. Edit: scratch that. Somehow my changes didn’t go through, after I spent like 10 minutes trying to think through a proper list of interests. So nevermind.

[kbdfr]

What is this "Come on..." supposed to mean? I don't know HaaTa other than by his forum name. If he thinks everybody on DT should know his real name, he should post it himself.

He has directly associated his name and nickname numerous places around the internet, including:

• […]

github: no clue what that is
flickr: no haata there, only "triplehaata"
keychatter: no clue what that is
his own website: never seen before
reddit: I don’t read there
input club website: no clue what that is
his "whois" info on IRC: never been there
etc.: this here is DT, not the whole Internet.

Basically you claim because he posts his real name somewhere, anybody is entitled to post it wherever they like.
There is at least one forum where my identity is disclosed - does that give a member there the right to post it here?
Besides, anybody could call themselves kbdfr in a forum (or even in several) I’ve never heard of and disclose my identity there without me being aware of it. Would it then be OK for a DT member who found it there to post my real name here?

My remark had nothing to do with a specific person, but addressed a question of principle:

[…] In my eyes nothing justifies posting real names of forum members even if they are to be found elsewhere. […]

Oh, and thank you for contributing to what you call "an off topic shitpile".

[matt3o]

I encourage to actually give lekashman some feedback about his original question

[scottc]

I'm actually quite disappointed by the reaction to this. Everyone has been so quick to grab their pitchforks and jump on the Massdrop criticism bangwagon despite Input Club being an entirely separate entity, with one of our big posters on the team, who open-source everything that they do. Really poor form. I understand people being dissatisfied with Massdrop, but shouting at Input Club about it is rather pointless.

Honestly, I know very little about the K-Type because there hasn't been much posted about it here on Deskthority apart from the occasional post from TuxKey who seems to be personally interested in it. That's unfortunate as it seems like an interesting project, so I'd definitely be happy to see more news about it posted in here.

[lekashman]

I can post a few things that differentiate the K Type from our other keyboards if that would answer some questions?

For one, the K Type's shining feature is of course, RGB LEDs. We are using a brand new LED that no one has used before in a keyboard (to our knowledge), and are meticulously testing various RGB switches with HaaTa's incredibly elaborate force gauge right now to make sure that the one's we choose have smooth and desirable force curves.

The entire compatibility chain on RGB is actually much more challenging and complex than you'd expect. The switch type affects the LED placement on the PCB, which affects the case, and then affects what sort of keycaps you can use for optimal LED display, which then translates to limits on legend style and placement.

Since we want it to be the best implementation, we've spent a lot of time prototyping fancy PCBs and testing different keycaps to make sure that the final product looks fantastic.

The short of this is, we won't be doing Alps switches this time around, as we have with our other keyboards.

We also are adding USB Type C connectors to the K Type, which is a much more secure and desirable connector than all previous USB types. The keyboard will still work with normal USB ports, so there is no worry about compatibility, we are simply planning for the future.

Lastly, the case for the K Type is the subtle, understated feature we are most proud of. We aren't using a plate, the entire visible portion of the keyboard will be a solid piece of aluminum and the switches will be directly mounted into the case. This is not only a beautiful decision, as you won't have to see screws on the top of your keyboard, but also a functional one. By constructing it this way, it allows for easier access to the PCB, as well as a very solid typing feeling not found in other keyboards.

Also, if you wanted to, you could hypothetically mash potatoes very effectively with the case because of how solid and sturdy it is. Even though no one will likely do this, we think that it feels better knowing that if you wanted to you would have the option.

[vivalarevolución]

I was about to ask what differentiates the K Type from other tenkeyless boards out there, but you beat me to it. Thanks.

[lekashman]

So, admittedly I only compared it to our other keyboards, not to keyboards in general, making yours still a valid question.
I think the magic of all the keyboards we make is that they are open source and fully programmable, without annoying software that permanently has to run. You can change them from the command line, or by using the wonderful interface Matteo built for us - input.club/configurator

No one else open sources the whole thing, PCB, case, and configuration tool, which I feel is in direct opposition to the personalization and ownership most enthusiasts like to have over their keyboards. I believe that if it's going to be yours, it has to be yours all the way down, not just your custom keycaps or fancy USB cable.

[vivalarevolución]

So, admittedly I only compared it to our other keyboards, not to keyboards in general, making yours still a valid question.
I think the magic of all the keyboards we make is that they are open source and fully programmable, without annoying software that permanently has to run. You can change them from the command line, or by using the wonderful interface Matteo built for us - input.club/configurator

No one else open sources the whole thing, PCB, case, and configuration tool, which I feel is in direct opposition to the personalization and ownership most enthusiasts like to have over their keyboards. I believe that if it's going to be yours, it has to be yours all the way down, not just your custom keycaps or fancy USB cable.

Thanks. That's what I've always appreciated about Input Club, is the amount of forethought and development that goes into the product before it is released, and then the followup and quest for improvement after the end of the sale.

Regarding the programmability, will this keyboard utilize the same methods as the other Input Club keyboards? Or is there the possibility of the the sort of drag and drop programmability that Matteo has discussed for the next version of the Whitefox? Specifically, I'm referring to the process of uploading the layout file to the controller.