Prototyping the next thing

[Muirium]

@Filet: AAs and AAAs will die like the floppy disk. They waste space, they must be removed for charging, and their time has come.

Integrated batteries are actually snap-in modules too. We don't exactly expect a tight-packed glued-in nightmare from Matteo! He's a solid retrojunkie like the rest of us. (I am for some things too. But not disposable batteries.)

[fohat]

AAs and AAAs will die like the floppy disk.

a retrojunkie like the rest of us.

Retrojunkie or not (I certainly am) the bane of my existence is non-standard *anything* (fill in the blank).

Having standard, readily available supplies such as batteries, plugs, etc, makes life so much easier.

Wouldn't it be nice if plugs from power supplies were standardized such that any 9V had the same connection?

[Wodan]

Code: Select all

Introduced in 1907,[2] the AA battery size was standardized by the American National Standards Institute (ANSI) in 1947

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AA_battery

AA and AAA batteries have been surviving for quite a long time now. Much longer than most keyboards today

[filet]

@Filet: AAs and AAAs will die like the floppy disk. They waste space, they must be removed for charging, and their time has come.

Integrated batteries are actually snap-in modules too. We don't exactly expect a tight-packed glued-in nightmare from Matteo! He's a solid retrojunkie like the rest of us. (I am for some things too. But not disposable batteries.)

Even if they are snapped in module, finding a replacement is something I'm concerned about. I like to be able to replace the battery when the battery can no longer keep it's charge.
It's the reason I have stuck to my Galaxy Note 2, and not moved to any of the recent Samsung phones, because finding replacement batteries for the newer phones is incredibly difficult.
It's also the same reason I'm disappointed Apple moved away from AA/AAA batteries in their Trackpad and Keyboard, though my Apple wireless keyboard died on me before the battery did.

But I understand where you are coming from. I'm all for smaller batteries that are easier to charge, just hope battery technology improves enough that they lasts more than 1000 charges at a minimum and still keep 90% charge capacity, not just for keyboards but for everything, laptops, phones, etc.

[filet]

@Matteo
Are there plans to have non-LED option for this 60% keyboard with split-spacebar when it arrives in Massdrop? Or at the very least, have in the firmware the ability to have all the LEDs off?

[matt3o]

of course you can turn everything off and technically you could desolder all the LEDs (they are through hole not SMD).

that being said, I'm pushing to have the wireless one first. I'm still waiting for a reply from the manufacturer.

[tentator]

nice idea thread... I'm currently working on a project with trackpoint and bluetooth too based on tmk.. maybe there will be even something to reuse for this.. also leds are an open point in tmk so far.. idea is anyways to use recyclable AAs or old standard nokia's nicds, charging from usb when connected (bluetooth should disable then automatically).. also the leds would work only in usb connected mode, when disconnected the leds will be off to not exhaust the batteries.. at the moment I'm fiddling around with teensy and ez key hid bluefruit modules (do you know them matt3o?)..
for the trackpoint I'm finally getting good results.. but one thing is scavenging it from an old ibm laptop but how would you source it if you plan to mass drop the keyboard?? would be great if they can be bought from philips or so of course..
also the modification of the keycaps is something I'd like to avoid and find to be a main nogo when adapting the trackpoint (i.e. I would like to be able to have trackpoint but not need to adapt the G H and B keycaps at all.. last resort would be to make more room between the switches and/or work on the trackpoint stem/needle to be wery thin....)

[Madhias]

that being said, I'm pushing to have the wireless one first.

That's a good idea!

[lootbag]

Skimmed through the thread.
Seems there is a replacement for my HHKB BT in the works, very excited!
Always wished the battery life was longer.

Sort of wishing this was a split 60% with BT, but that is my dream.

[filet]

Around when can we get a glimpse of the possible layout of the RGB with trackpoint + split spacebar? what about the bluetooth?

Is this something that will come to Massdrop before June? before December?
Just asking so I can hold off on other keyboard purchases.
Hope we could see the layout soon so we can get an idea of how it will look.

thanks.
Really looking forward to the splitspacebar 60%, and really curious how a trackpoint feels.

[matt3o]

I'm waiting for some feedback from the manufacturer. Hopefully next Monday I'll know more

[matt3o]

okay. some updates.

We have to start from the RGB keyboard, the wireless one is very complex and takes more time. But anyway don't think of it as an RGB keyboard. It will be a Cherry MX+ALPS keyboard, drag-n-drop firmware update, trackpoint support, split spacebar support, available in 60% and 65% layouts which also happens to have LEDs... if you want them.

The development phase would cost approx $20k

This would include a professional grade firmware, the PCB design, mold for the 3u spacebar and 5 prototypes.

At this price point we need to sell 500-1000 boards minimum. It's not impossible, but definitely it's quite a commitment.

How do we move from here I'm not entirely sure, let me digest these numbers and I'll let you know. What are your thoughts? One option would be a "kickstarter" style pre-order. Another possibility is to find 2-3 people willing to invest.

I'll keep you all posted.

[scottc]

What's the "professional-grade firmware"? If I'm honest, I think that TMK is 100x better than all of the stock firmwares that I've ever used.

[matt3o]

it's the same guy who did the firmware for the masterkeys, but in our case the firmware is reprogrammable.

[ScarletBegonias]

It will be a Cherry MX+ALPS keyboard, drag-n-drop firmware update, trackpoint support, split spacebar support, available in 60% and 65% layouts which also happens to have LEDs... if you want them.

MX+Alps, 3U spacebars, trackpoint support ... it sounds like you have a solution to the Alps keycap availability conundrum. Are you able to share any details at this point?

BTW - the White Fox is brilliant - great job!

[matt3o]

ALPS keycaps are OEM, the same used for the V60 alps edition I reckon.

[jacobolus]

Nah, Alps keycaps should be called “Alps profile”.

Tai Hao uses the same profile, because they were copying Alps.

Cheesy backlit gamer boards with “OEM” keycaps are a different, inferior profile. (I think the KBP V60 is more similar to the gamer board profile than to Alps / Tai Hao profile. I don’t have one to look carefully though.)

Cf. workshop-f7/keycap-profile-demonstratio ... t9847.html for details.

[b4d_tR1p]

spectacular news!

[vivalarevolución]

okay. some updates.

We have to start from the RGB keyboard, the wireless one is very complex and takes more time. But anyway don't think of it as an RGB keyboard. It will be a Cherry MX+ALPS keyboard, drag-n-drop firmware update, trackpoint support, split spacebar support, available in 60% and 65% layouts which also happens to have LEDs... if you want them.

The development phase would cost approx $20k

This would include a professional grade firmware, the PCB design, mold for the 3u spacebar and 5 prototypes.

At this price point we need to sell 500-1000 boards minimum. It's not impossible, but definitely it's quite a commitment.

How do we move from here I'm not entirely sure, let me digest these numbers and I'll let you know. What are your thoughts? One option would be a "kickstarter" style pre-order. Another possibility is to find 2-3 people willing to invest.

I'll keep you all posted.

For comparison's sake, what were the final sales numbers on the Whitefox?

[matt3o]

we sold 1300 of them

[vivalarevolución]

we sold 1300 of them

A Kickstarter would definitely get to 20k, judging by the success of the first Whitefox and other Kickstarter keyboard projects, I think you could easily get to that level.

Obviously, finding a few investors could be less of a hassle. I think more than a few enthusiasts around here have 5k or so they could chip in to a project group that has a proven track record of delivering a decent product.

[Redmaus]

Please, no more 60% boards. They are everywhere. You can already get pretty much anything you want in 60%.

TKL please

[Muirium]

60% for life. Join the revolution.

[Redmaus]

No thanks, I like to have more than 61 dedicated keys

[matt3o]

still trying to get a fixed timeline from the manufacturer... I'll keep you posted.

[cswanic]

Man, I knew there was something about the 3U spacebar option when SA Retro was run. I was too much a newb at the time and couldn't see a project that would even need it. In practice though, a different story when using anything less than a TKL format. Now if we could do anything close to something like this JUST Limited 108UW-HiPro wiki/Topre_JustSystems_Keyboards
We never can seem to find this in the states, maybe a different story in the EU, but man, that's just about endgame for me. Is it a good time now to discuss legends and color for the keycaps? Man just look at this guy once more wiki/File:JustSystems_RF_108UW-HiPro_front.jpeg , man that's gorgeous!

[robotsokk]

A board with support for both Alps and MX switches and the option for a split spacebar is really compelling. Definitely interested in how things come along for the RGB project, but I'm especially interested in the BT project.

For the RGB board, I take it that the Alps-compatible switches bundled with the kit will be Matias switches with the clear housing? I ask since I've seen cases (most recently with the large Planck group buy on MD) where people work around the backlighting issue by soldering LEDs to the underside of the PCB (ostensibly positioning them such that the light shines through the hole for the central stem of an MX switch?), so perhaps there'd be some way to get backlighting on some Alps builds without extra drilling needed.

[matt3o]

Yes the ALPS are Matias, there might be a way to have backlight with them too, but that's up to the adventurous user.

Quick update. I haven't given up with the wireless keyboard yet... It seems that they could have a BT 3.0 version ready but I'm still pushing for BT 4.

It might be possible to actually have a standard RGB over USB with a plugin module for bluetooth (with pogo pins or something). In wireless mode the LEDs turn off of course. If I get the green light on this it would be perfect.

[matt3o]

got confirmation! IT CAN BE DONE!

The keyboard will be a full RGB keyboard with BT4.0 add-on module. In BT mode you can't use the LEDs of course. It will be available in DIY kit, so if you really don't want the LEDs you can have it without. If you don't need the BT module you simply don't buy it.

I'm pushing for both ALPS and Cherry switches and it might be possible to also have a third super secret switch (never used before as far as I know).

I'll keep you posted!

[tentator]

Yummy!!