Phantom Custom Keyboard Group Buy (CLOSED)

[litster]

I was able to butcher my Goldtouch numpads to get 5 Cherry plate-mounted stabilizers (will replace once my new Cherry stabilizers arrive. A couple of issues:

- due to the water jet's diameter, the inside corners are not 90-degree cuts. They are a little round, just a little. But enough to make the stabilizers not fit. A little filing to make the corner 90 degrees will fix it.
- The cutouts to support both Cherry and Costar stabilizers did not pan out. The little notch on the top of the stabilizer cutout to support Costar stabilizers made Cherry stabilizers not able to clip onto the plate securely. There is nothing for the hook to grab onto. This is something Prinsvalium pointed out before and now has been confirmed.

So a few things buyers need to be aware of:
- Filing is required. There is a very small risk that you file down too much and your stabilizers don't fit tightly on the plate any more. If that happens, a little bit of glue should fix it.

- Phantom will not support multiple stabilizers (not a problem with the 7bit layout as it doesn't need any). We are not going to have multiple plate designs to support either of the stabilizers. That would DOUBLE the number of plate ANSI and ISO designs that we already have. More plate designs, higher cost, lower bulk buying power, easier to screw up your orders.

- We will switch to support only Cherry plate-mounted stabilizers. The reason is, even though they are back-ordered, when online stores have them back in stock, you can buy hundreds of them. And you know they are made by Cherry. It is still unclear to me how we could procure the number of Costar stabilizers we would need for this project. And they may not be as good as the real Costar stabilizers you have in your Filco keyboards. WASDKeyboards may have them in stock in the future. But no one knows how many there will be in stock, available for how long, how much, and of what quality.

Please keep these in mind when you order (or change your order).

[trax]

And I tested it last night, the holes on the plate line up correctly to the holes on the PCB, even for the 7bit layout. I can sandwich switches between the plate and PCB. You can have Esc and 14 Function keys, and extra keys next to both of your tiny shifts, and extra keys between the arrow keys and the 6-pack cluster.

Ooh I think I want some buttons between the arrow keys and the 6pack.

[litster]

Diodes soldered. Connections tested. Firmware loaded. Teensy soldered. The keyboard works!!!! At least the few keys I tried. It is 1:30am. I need to go to sleep.

To be continued...

[trax]

Diodes soldered. Connections tested. Firmware loaded. Teensy soldered. The keyboard works!!!! At least the few keys I tried. It is 1:30am. I need to go to sleep.

To be continued...

fap fap fap fap

[HzFaq]

If only I had time and money instead of a child and a job

This looks amazing, gj dudes.

[litster]

99% done. Picture below is the first Phantom prototype sitting in a Filco bottom case. White plate and no top case still looks pretty good, doesn't it? Due to the USB cable I have connect, I need to to cut out a piece of a vertical support bar to make it fit. Not a big deal.

Phantom Done.JPG (434.49 KiB) Viewed 10362 times

LEDs are not working, probably the firmware isn't done yet. They are white LEDs and I want to see them light up. Also ? is backspace now, and the right Alt is Win key. I had to bend my own wire for the spacebar stabilizer metal bar. Took me a few tries. And the wires are cheap. $5 for 6 feet.

There is a problem with the Teensy legs interfering with switches at F3, F4, 4, and 5. There is a brute force work around (shaving one edge off of the switch bottom casing). Looking into a solution with the Phantom team offline.

Anyone has any good suggestion on the best way to bend metal bars accurately? I can't do it well. And we can't find 7x and 6.25x stabilizers. We need to be able to source these stabilizer bars ourselves.

Oh, BTW, I am typing all this on the Phantom prototype! It is good to see the 1.5x Control and Alt keycaps are being used!

[trax]

99% done. Picture below is the first Phantom prototype sitting in a Filco bottom case. White plate and no top case still looks pretty good, doesn't it? Due to the USB cable I have connect, I need to to cut out a piece of a vertical support bar to make it fit. Not a big deal.

Phantom Done.JPG

LEDs are not working, probably the firmware isn't done yet. They are white LEDs and I want to see them light up. Also ? is backspace now, and the right Alt is Win key. I had to bend my own wire for the spacebar stabilizer metal bar. Took me a few tries. And the wires are cheap. $5 for 6 feet.

There is a problem with the Teensy legs interfering with switches at F3, F4, 4, and 5. There is a brute force work around (shaving one edge off of the switch bottom casing). Looking into a solution with the Phantom team offline.

Anyone has any good suggestion on the best way to bend metal bars accurately? I can't do it well. And we can't find 7x and 6.25x stabilizers. We need to be able to source these stabilizer bars ourselves.

Oh, BTW, I am typing all this on the Phantom prototype! It is good to see the 1.5x Control and Alt keycaps are being used!

Shit looks so cash.

Also, would be it possible to get ALPS in there?

[Tarkoon]

You absolutely need the blank 1x Cherry caps or the calculator or the 1/2 page button from my G80-2551HAD for the gaps between the modifiers!

[bpiphany]

I probably programmed the controller according to the regular Filco layout, that is why some of the keys have the wrong bindings. Are you sure you soldered the LEDs in in the right direction? Can you test with a volt meter if the voltage across the LED pins and ground changes when pressing "lock" keys. The pins on the Teensy should probably be trimmed flush with the top of the PCB before soldering them. I think that was part of my preliminary assembly instructions.. =)

[litster]

Square pad on the PCB is positive, and long leg on the LED is positive, right? I will test with a volt meter next, after work.

I must have missed your instruction on trimming legs flush. That should work.

Are there any special tool out there to help bending metal rods?

[litster]

A simple change to the firmware code fixed the wrong keys and I can type on it 100%. It wasn't really wrong, just the original firmware is for ANSI125. Phantom prototype is ANSI150.

I also installed the Phantom into my white acrylic case. It fits! The Phantom plate is a little smaller than the original Filco plate because Filco's bends down a bit at the top and bottom. Because of that a little cushion on the bottom edge of the inside case, or a piece of really thin foam mat that the Koreans use in their custom cases should take care of that. Anyone knows where I can buy that?

Phantom in Acrylic-small.JPG (204.33 KiB) Viewed 10271 times

So the remaining work items are:
-Fix the LEDs (could be my shitty soldering skill, bad components, or firmware)
-Be able to bend 6.25x and 7x Cherry stabilizer bars, maybe alaricljs could help
-Create a full parts list
-Finalize pricing
-Set group buy close date
-Collect money

One problem is pretty much everyone is sold out of Cherry stabilizers. May need to wait for them.

[litster]

Everyone, please laugh at me now. First I screwed up the polarity of the LEDs. Now, the LEDs are so damn bright! they hurt my eyes while sitting in a genuine Filco Tenkeyless case.

Phantom Bright LEDs.JPG (491.84 KiB) Viewed 10261 times

Need to program the firmware to add strobe tactical mode.

Would a more resistive resistor make it dimer?

[hoggy]

Lilster, it looks amazing.

[bpiphany]

Would a more resistive resistor make it dimer?

Glad to see it working =D Yes a higher resistor could do that, I had gotten the ides (quite wrong apparently) that LEDs really wanted to stay close to their nominal current. Turns out it doesn't matter too much. On white LEDs the different color components might drift by a different amount when under feeding them though. It shouldn't take me too long to set up the PWM mode for those two LED channels. After that you have 255 steps of brightness to choose from! But not right now, I've got too much else to do =P

[litster]

Thanks PrinsValium. I won't have to desolder my super bright LEDs. Now I want an externally accessible firmware flash switch for Teensy.

Folks, please note that PrinsValium's PCB and plate design have passed my prototype tests with flying colors. And this is only our first test build. The only problems so far is me. My own errors. PrinsValium has done an awesome design job!!!

Now that I finished filing mounting plates and soldering components and worrying about why the LEDs didn't work, I thought about stabilizers more. The Cherry stabilizers have been working pretty good. I like them from the keyboard builder's perspective. They are very sturdy. They are more forgiving in cutout size. Their stabilizer bars have only 2 90-degree angle so they are easier to make. installing and removing keycaps are much, much easier than Costar. Costar stabilizers are such a pain to work with.

And now that I have installed and pulled keycaps off of these Cherry stabilizers many, many times the last few days, the notch we cut out to fit a Costar stabilizer at the same place actually hasn't been a huge problem. Most of the time the stabilizer inserts stay in the cut out even though the hook isn't catching the plate at all. Sometimes they do come out because of the notch. But you can just push it back right it. Much less painful than the Costar stabilizers where you have to put the stabilizer inserts back in place.

Costar stabilizer clips works better with plates that are a little thinner than the plate we have. Whereas Cherry stabilizers can deal with the exact 1/16" plate thickness of the Phantom. My Costar problem is also because that the Costar stabilizers I have are from some 15, 20 year-old keyboard, so my results is still kind of inconclusive.

So, here is what I am going to do. I just ordered a few sets of Costar stabilizers from WASDkeyboards.com. When they arrive, I will desolder a few switches to remove my Cherry stabilizers. Then, at the locations where Costar stabilizer clips are installed, I will file those places at an angle to make those edges a little thinner. Then I will install Costar stabilizers and solder the switches back on to test them. Spacebar would still be an issue. the stabilizer bars WASDkeyboards.com sells are 6.25x wide. I think most of us will want to use Cherry double shot 1.5x modifiers and 7x spacebars. Cherry stabilizer bars are relatively easier to bend than Costar's. Costar's stabilizer bars have 4 90-degree angle bends plus 2 Z bends. It is a lot harder to bend them accurately. At least it is for me. So for spacebars we have these options: Cherry any length (as they are easy to bend), and Costar 6.25x from WASDKeyboards. Backspace, Enter, Shifts could be either type, if my costar stabilizers from WASDKeyboards.com passes my Phantom compatibility tests.

What do you guys think?

[trax]

Id go for the Cherry stabilizers.
As you said there easier to install and are very sturdy.
(Took me 10 minutes to install a spacebar on an alps board with Costar stabilizers yesterday).

I also prefer the sound and feel of cherry stabilizers.

[webwit]

Costar stabilizers for me. The Cherry stabilizers suck and are inferior. They change the feel. Game over. Costar improved the feel, so how anyone can prefer the flat Cherry feel is beyond me. How easy the Costars are to install is completely and totally irrelevant. The 5 minutes more it takes to install good stabilizers don't compare in any way to the hundreds or thousands of hours you will use the keys. It makes me wonder how people reason. Like, "Hey I've used this keyboard for 300 hours now and the big keys feel flat, but I saved 5 minutes 300 hours ago, and that is what counts! I loved those 5 extra minutes. It was absolutely worth the inferior key feel the past 300 hours."

[litster]

Pictures I told the last few days while I was building the Phantom prototype, plus a few new pictures I took today.

Removing spacers from Teensy legs so Teensy can get as close to the PCB as possible:

Teensy Spacer Removed.jpg (127.2 KiB) Viewed 10213 times

Teensy's legs through PCB, need to cut leg flush to PCB before soldering or the legs would interfere with switches F3, F4, 4, 5.

Teensy Legs through PCB.jpg (104.07 KiB) Viewed 10213 times

PCB with Doides soldered:

Phantom PCB with Diodes Soldered.jpg (170.5 KiB) Viewed 10213 times

PCB with Teensy soldered:

Phantom PCB with Teensy soldered.jpg (179.4 KiB) Viewed 10213 times

The wrong way to solder Teensy, legs too long:

Phantom PCB Teensy Done Wrong.jpg (147.72 KiB) Viewed 10213 times

Closeup of Teensy on PCB:

Teensy soldered on PCB.jpg (169.84 KiB) Viewed 10213 times

PrinsValium changed the firmware so the LEDs are not so bright. It is perfect now!

Phantom in Clear Acrylic Case with LEDs.jpg (110.12 KiB) Viewed 10213 times

Phantom living inside my mutilated clear acrylic case, which should give everyone a good idea where everything is:

Phantom Bottom View.jpg (157.42 KiB) Viewed 10213 times

This is probably the first time you see how the USB cable comes out from the back. that opening works perfectly for Filco's cable, very secure. For Phantom, I zip-tied the USB cable to the Phantom PCB, and the hole appears to be too large, but the cable is very secure. I found out Goldtouch's USB cable is exactly the same as Filco's. I just have not tried using it on a Filco, and that it is missing Filco's Ferrite.

Phantom USB Cable Out.jpg (96.75 KiB) Viewed 10213 times

End result:

Phantom in Acrylic Case.jpg (107.96 KiB) Viewed 10213 times

[litster]

Costar stabilizers for me. The Cherry stabilizers suck and are inferior. They change the feel. Game over. Costar improved the feel, so how anyone can prefer the flat Cherry feel is beyond me. How easy the Costars are to install is completely and totally irrelevant. The 5 minutes more it takes to install good stabilizers don't compare in any way to the hundreds or thousands of hours you will use the keys. It makes me wonder how people reason. Like, "Hey I've used this keyboard for 300 hours now and the big keys feel flat, but I saved 5 minutes 300 hours ago, and that is what counts! I loved those 5 extra minutes. It was absolutely worth the inferior key feel the past 300 hours."

I understand what you mean, webwit. Hopefully the Costar stabilizers I will get will work better. And if people don't mind Cherry stabilizers not fully secured to the plate, we can keep the design as it is. Still filing will be required. Buyers beware.

But for spacebar, it is still a problem. As I said, I can bend stabilizer bars for Cherry spacebars. I don't think I can bend stabilizer bars for Costar at any length. We are still stuck with Cherry stabilizers for 7x spacebar, or 6.25x Costar spacebar.

[sixty]

Did you try ordering the metal bars/wires from Cherry as is?

Trivia: The stabilizer bars in the G81 series keyboards are the exact same wires that they use in the G80 (G99 part number) stabilizers, despite being a totally different stabilizing system.

If someone (perhaps Ascaii) could summon a large amount of G81 boards, these would most likely work as stabilizer donation boards.

[litster]

No, I have not tried ordering metal bars from Cherry. I will need to check with 7bit and blainchen who hooked 7bit up with ordering Cherry switches.

Let me check with Ascaii to see if he saved the stabilizers. I can also bend the stabilizer bars for Cherry. It is just that I don't know of a way to get Costar 7x stabilizer bars.

[blainchen]

As far as my direct inquiry at Cherry went:
No possibility to order these wires on their own. Only way is to order full stabilizers.

[litster]

So it is possible to order full stabilizers? What is the MOQ and at what price? Thanks.

[litster]

PrinsValim has made it that you can change one value in the firmware code to adjust the LEDs' brightness. Also, strobe tactical mode is now available as an option! LOL!

[blainchen]

So it is possible to order full stabilizers? What is the MOQ and at what price? Thanks.

Frame mount 1x2 | G99-0224 | MOQ: 250 pieces | 44.18 €/250 pieces
Frame mount 1x3 | G99-0225 | MOQ: 250 pieces | 90.90 €/250 pieces
Frame mount 1x7 | G99-0379 | MOQ: 250 pieces | 112.04 €/250 pieces
Frame mount 1x10 | G99-0226 | MOQ: 250 pieces | 71.40 €/250 pieces

PCB mount 1x2 | G99-0742 | MOQ: 250 pieces | 35.70 €/250 pieces
PCB mount 1x3 | G99-0743 | MOQ: 250 pieces | 35.70 €/250 pieces
PCB mount 1x7 | G99-0745 | MOQ: 250 pieces | 35.70 €/250 pieces
PCB mount 1x10 | G99-0744 | MOQ: 250 pieces | 35.70 €/250 pieces

That are the exact prices I would pay for these stabilizers.
The prices aren't save yet. I requested two offers last year, one in April (G99-0224: 30.43EUR/250) and then the upper one in November. The other prices all went up nearly the same.

[litster]

I have a draft of Phantom soldering instruction here: http://deskthority.net/wiki/Phantom_Instruction

I still need to upload more pictures, but 95% of the steps are there.

[kaiserreich]

What is frame mount and why is it so much more expensive.

[litster]

"Metal Frame" is Cherry's terminology. http://www.cherrycorp.com/english/switches/key/mx.htm

[litster]

[holding down Shift]THE SHIFT KEYS DON"T STICK NO MOAR!!"[/holding down Shift]

I just installed Costar stabilizers on the Phantom prototype. It has to be pretty precisely installed though. All wide keys work. There is a little bit of a problem with PBT right shift (dye sub or laser), but no problem with regular double shots or SP's double shots. I have the same problem with PBT right shift keycaps on regular Filcos, so this is not unique to the Phantom design. I suspect that the PBT keycaps are a little bit too thick and it rubs against the bent up portion of Costar's stabilizer bar.

I will usage test this setup for a little while before making a call.

We still have this problem with Costar stabilizer bars for 7x spacebar. Maybe we will just use Cherry stabilizers for 7x spacebar. 6.25x stabilzers we can get from WASDkeyboards.com. They should have enough to sell to us, we only have 9 orders for PHANSIWIN and 8 orders for PHISOWIN.

BTW, we have 59 orders for the PCB!

[Findecanor]

Phantom living inside my mutilated clear acrylic case, which should give everyone a good idea where everything is:

Phantom Bottom View.jpg

Is the metal plate jutting out from the PCB on every side by a few mm?