Brexit: The DT Poll

[tp4tissue]

I'm pretty sure the USA could provide a decent standard of living to all of latin and south America on it's own. But there's no programm in place for that

I agree, there should be much more effort by the US to grow economies in Mexico and Central America, instead of mainly providing destabilization, weapons, and a drug market.

We don’t have a currency union with these countries though, so they have sovereign control over their local monetary (and fiscal) policy.

I don't think it is in the United State's best interest to help create a strong South America.

The rise in USA labor costs is extensive.

It's also inevitable that the Dollar depreciates further as Asian nations, China / india move forward.


So, where will USA dredge for cheap labor next.. Africa is too close to EU and Asian control...

South America is the best place for American economic slavers. Low shipping, close to home, poor, willing to work..


So essentially, the American strategy today would be to Save them as they are and keep them poor and destabilized until they are absolutely needed to be tapped for native consumer goods production.

[seebart]

As far as I can tell, the original vision for the “European idea” was to ultimately end up with some kind of integrated fiscal union with a real federal government. Instead, they stopped halfway: monetary union with no fiscal union and no political authority and not too much political legitimacy or accountability.

Correct, remember that was originally in the 1950's ! Slight change of situation since then.

As a result, any economic imbalances between states are basically impossible to rectify within the existing structure, and the whole thing gets placed under enormous stress whenever there is any kind of economic shock. In my opinion, the only two ways out are to admit that the current structure is broken and either (a) dissolve it, or (b) dramatically reform it. (b) is looking less and less likely all the time. My guess is that it all falls apart sometime in the next 20 years.

Yes, yes and yes. It's like a bad plan that cannot be reversed because no one dares to even try. That's why the "Brexit"(great name BTW) is so fascinating to us Germans. Will the British be bold and brave once again and finally break free from the continent? I hope so.

[tp4tissue]

TP: I have no idea what you’re trying to say.

(a) dissolve it, or (b) dramatically reform it. (b) is looking less and less likely all the time. My guess is that it all falls apart sometime in the next 20 years.


All of those points are general solutions to any problem..

They are always in the process of happening, we do a little bit of all of them everyday..

At the scale of a NATION of people, large body of government, the transitions and rectifications take LIFETIMES to accomplish..


You will not see it completed in your lifetime, though as a --critic-- of the process your direction and vision for what is to be done is correct, however it is incongruent with the reality of how long it takes.

[jacobolus]

seebart: The EU and the Eurozone are fundamentally different kinds of entities. I think it’s very misleading to casually conflate them.

[tp4tissue]

If we look at the USA treatment of the middle east, it is the same strategy we employ in mexico.. Keep them destabilized to suit western Needs..

The Middle East united would mean a nearly unstoppable energy monopoly.. but if they're all fighting at each other.. they are weak and can be traded with, guns, planes, armored transport, etc..

[seebart]

seebart: The EU and the Eurozone are fundamentally different kinds of entities. I think it’s very misleading to casually conflate them.

Sure, but it all intertwines more or less. I always like to take Denmark as an example. They made the right choices. But it's a "small" stable country, a bad example in many ways. I remember when Germany was laughing at Denmark for not joining the EU...no more laughing now.

[adhoc]

If they can't vote for him, Trump's not interested. Hell, he's not interested in the majority of people who could! Which is fine and all, except in politics you're expected to at least pretend you do. His open hostility to non-whites and women is still the main thing between him and the White House. Damn it if the media isn't cheering him on for a story. Four more years of this! Makes their lives so easy. Just "report" what he says on Twitter. Idiots.

What did he say against non whites and women?

[andrewjoy]

If they can't vote for him, Trump's not interested. Hell, he's not interested in the majority of people who could! Which is fine and all, except in politics you're expected to at least pretend you do. His open hostility to non-whites and women is still the main thing between him and the White House. Damn it if the media isn't cheering him on for a story. Four more years of this! Makes their lives so easy. Just "report" what he says on Twitter. Idiots.

What did he say against non whites and women?

I don't know , i would like to see it as it would damage the buffoons campaign. Chances are its just the usual cries of any criticism of a woman or non-white person is considered sexism or racism.

[adhoc]

The thing is, I've seen with Obama how drastically US administration can influence even on me, personally. So I've been following this year's election very, very carefully. While I think Trump's wall is stupid (as an idea) but also very smart (as grabbing the attention), I've never seen him be against women or PoC.

Never.

Against illegal immigration? He is literally saying people should follow the laws. How is this racist?

Against women? Ah, the abortion statement, I presume? He was asked if he would penalize women for abortion, >>>>>IF<<<<< abortion was illegal in the US. He said he would, but later changed his statement he would rather pressure the doctors instead. Once again, he was bashed for saying he would like to see the laws are followed, not that he's against abortion, women or PoC.

Media twisted his words and made a sensation out of it, of course.

[jacobolus]

adhoc: You are woefully misinformed, but let’s not get into the weeds here. There’s already a long thread about Trump on this forum. Take it over there if you want people to educate you.

[Muirium]

"Brexit"(great name BTW) is so fascinating to us Germans. Will the British be bold and brave once again and finally break free from the continent? I hope so.

Indeed. Whenever I hear of it, I get peckish…

Brexit Biscuits

Brexit.jpg (56.02 KiB) Viewed 8403 times

Goes jolly nicely with tea, I bet.

[adhoc]

Don't you dare ignore me, Mu! Answer, damn it!

[Muirium]

Answer what? Too much typing. Not enough dunking! (Nips off to kettle.)

[adhoc]

I will always have empathy for lazyness.

[tp4tissue]

The thing is, I've seen with Obama how drastically US administration can influence even on me, personally. So I've been following this year's election very, very carefully. While I think Trump's wall is stupid (as an idea) but also very smart (as grabbing the attention), I've never seen him be against women or PoC.

Never.

Against illegal immigration? He is literally saying people should follow the laws. How is this racist?

Against women? Ah, the abortion statement, I presume? He was asked if he would penalize women for abortion, >>>>>IF<<<<< abortion was illegal in the US. He said he would, but later changed his statement he would rather pressure the doctors instead. Once again, he was bashed for saying he would like to see the laws are followed, not that he's against abortion, women or PoC.

Media twisted his words and made a sensation out of it, of course.

I don't think Trump would make a good or bad president..

He does not seem to plan ahead enough to make either a positive or negative difference in the time he'd be in office..

Hillary will follow the status quo, she is a team player in the sense that she bridges commerce and government..

Bernie is a socialist. so ... Everyone loves him, great for the poor, great for the middle class..

But, guess what, the people in power are not socialists, they're capitalists.. they won't let Bernie win..

I can understand and even agree to the fact that Bernie would do great things.. But it was just not going to happen.. certainly not in America..


But hey, like I was talking about the collapsing bridges and cracked dams before... once enough people die of something , The government will take action.. So EVENTUALLY, perhaps we will get a Bernie equivalent.. So that's to be looked foward to..

[adhoc]

Trump would be a terrible president. I'm just calling out this bullshit Trump is misoginist / racist, because it is not substantiated.

His rhetoric and knowledge of the world, well, being a politic in general, is shit. He lacks the finesse, he lacks the vocabulary.

You guys are effed. All options are a steaming pile of shit.

[tp4tissue]

Trump would be a terrible president. I'm just calling out this bullshit Trump is misoginist / racist, because it is not substantiated.

His rhetoric and knowledge of the world, well, being a politic in general, is shit. He lacks the finesse, he lacks the vocabulary.

You guys are effed. All options are a steaming pile of shit.

I don't think trump will win..

But even if he does, that's why the president has a cabinet..

George Bush Junior was by most academic standards a dullard.. but America ran just fine.. Not alot of people died.. There was enough food..

The rest, no need to overthink it..

[Muirium]

How about Iraq?

[adhoc]

Bush Jr. was too obviously a useful idiot. Need someone less obvious.

[Khers]

Wait, is this turning into yet another Trump thread? How did that happen?

For the record, I hope Britain elects to stay in the EU. If not, I forsee Sweden leaving pretty soon as well as the scandibrit corner of skepticism would get rather undermined by Brexit.

[tp4tissue]

Bush Jr. was too obviously a useful idiot. Need someone less obvious.

what do you mean by -useful- idiot , do you mean scapegoated ?

[tp4tissue]

How about Iraq?

USA casualty ~5000 people

Not bad for an insurgency of that scale..

[adhoc]

How about Iraq?

USA casualty ~5000 people

Not bad for an insurgency of that scale..

And...non americans don't count for people?

[tp4tissue]

How about Iraq?

USA casualty ~5000 people

Not bad for an insurgency of that scale..

And...non americans don't count for people?

Well I was specifically speaking in terms of American Interests.. so strategically, as a player against other nations.. America won..

As is occurring in its continued policy and motivation to destabilize the middle east.. etc



Now, if you want to mmm.. talk about humanity with no artificial borders.. Then, yea many people died..

hahahaha.. But that's the game, we convert human lives into different things.

Human lives and labor is transformed into Machines, into tools, into weapons, into food, into water, Back into more human lives..

That's the circle of things..

Largely, the Population is growing despite the losses incurred.. So as a WHOLE when we are not talking about artificial barriers.. Humanity is still doing just fine despite less than optimal solutions to problems.

[Muirium]

Besides, wasn't Isis worth the Iraqi and American people's sacrifice? They're fucking great.

[tp4tissue]

Besides, wasn't Isis worth the Iraqi and American people's sacrifice? They're fucking great.

America is indeed extremely worried about Isis..

They have something that's very powerful, a conviction to unify the middle east....


And we already spoke about how a Unified middle east would be terrifying for American Energy requirements, and world energy requirements in general..

Everyone needs oil in the short term..

Nuclear takes ~20 years to build each plant.. Oil, we already have the infrastructure..

[adhoc]

No, I'm not talking about humanity with no artificial borders, I fully understand borders are necessary and understand their function, I'm not some new age hippy.

Regardless of borders, we're talking about human lives here.

And again, I'm no hippie, if it was up to me I'd make a selection of few dozen thousands of best samples (no health issues, no cancer, no AIDS, high IQ, all the quality genes), exterminate the rest (this would obviously mean sacrificing myself in the process - but I would!) and carry on humanity in real, full glory. Because it would be logical and it would be best for humanity as a species. BUT we're not doing that, so killing people for no fucking reason is stupid.

[Muirium]

But! It's really smart if you're a Tea Party loonie trying to topple the United States, ready for Jesus to come again.

[adhoc]

But! It's really smart if you're a Tea Party loonie trying to topple the United States, ready for Jesus to come again.

Ah yes, it's the people with M4s and holy bible against the people with AKs and Quran war.

[Muirium]

Millenarian apocalypse cults are all horrifically bad news. Evangelical Christians, Zionists and Islamists alike. Their black and white extremism — you're either with us or you're against us — degrades all discussion. They're the ones at the vanguard of this sordid little age of ours, after the end of the Cold War and before the next thing.