Brexit: The DT Poll

[fohat]

even if it sometimes lets neo-nazis rant at each other from soapboxes, and usually lets people get away with slander

Trump has built his entire candidacy on impossible promises, ridiculous boasts, and downright falsehoods.

Now that the tables are turning, and he finds himself on the receiving end of truth and facts, he is sure to go ballistic.

I just wish that people would shut up until after the convention so that he is firmly nominated. If he gets de-railed in time for the Republicans to get behind someone less repugnant, the GOP will not be so damaged down-ballot.

The german laws are a bit harsh in my view , banning certain symbols even from textbooks and historic educational videos and films and so on.

I live in a county where public school science teachers are required to refer to evolution as "a theory" and to present creationism as a rational alternative.

And in the State of Florida, state employees are prevented, by legislation, from uttering the words "climate change" in public!

[seebart]

If he gets de-railed in time for the Republicans to get behind someone less repugnant, the GOP will not be so damaged down-ballot.

You seriously think that's going to happen? That would impress me. And you know Trump would not take it either way.

[kbdfr]

[…] Now we have […] Germany arresting their citizens for critisizing their government o.O

I'm curious what your source might be for that.

Wow, google sure is hard to use.

I'm looking forward to your new excuses why the sources are not valid!

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/eu ... story.html

http://www.infowars.com/germany-orders- ... dia-posts/

http://www.breitbart.com/tech/2015/12/1 ... migration/

Facebook, Twitter, Google Collude With German Government To Censor Discussion On Immigration

German authorities, meanwhile, have reached a deal with Facebook, Google and Twitter to get tougher on offensive content, with the outlets agreeing to apply domestic laws, rather than their own corporate policies, to reviews of posts.

If you need more links let me know. I have no problems using Google.

Here again, you are distorting the facts, or rather just asserting things which are not true.
You speak of [quoting you] "Germany arresting their citizens for critisizing their government" while the links provided clearly indicate that the German government is simply taking steps to have hate speech deleted from the social media, thus enforcing national law (which, as you perhaps are not aware, is the duty of any government).

• Your third link (breitbart.com) doesn't report anything of the kind alleged, but merely formulates attacks [quote:] "Facebook, Twitter, Google Collude With German Government To Censor Discussion On Immigration".
• Your second link (a site called InfoWars) is of absolutely no value for reference, being obviously a simple propaganda site and by no way an information site [quote:] "EDITOR’S NOTE: Germany is country that has been overrun with teeming hordes of Muslim migrants, brought in by Angela Merkel. Thousands of German citizens have been attacked, raped, assaulted and their homes vandalized. But if you dare to post the truth on social media about what is really happening in Germany, you will have your computers seized and you will be arrested. How much longer until that begins to happen here in America?".
• Your first link (the Washington Post), the only serious one you provide, doesn't mention anyone having been arrested, not even the man who [quote:] "had posted the tragic image of the dead 3-year-old Syrian boy whose body on a Turkish beach became a symbol of the refugee crisis. Along with the photo, he had posted: 'We are not mourning, we are celebrating!'"

So your affirmation [quoting you:] "Now we have […] Germany arresting their citizens for critisizing their government" proves to not even be an exaggeration, but nothing than a simple lie.
The guy was not arrested, and he had not criticized the government, but celebrated the death of a 3-year-old on the only ground that he was a refugee.

By the way, don't you find it disgusting?

[andrewjoy]

I live in a county where public school science teachers are required to refer to evolution as "a theory" and to present creationism as a rational alternative.

And in the State of Florida, state employees are prevented, by legislation, from uttering the words "climate change" in public!

Thats just fucked up!

But to be fair, it is a theory , its just a theory that has been proven correct .

At least they are not calling evolution a " world view" or a " religion".

I could go on about retarded creationists all day.



Anyway.

Banning the phrase "climate change" thats just silly, even if you are one of the insane climate change deniers you still need to use the phrase to deny reality.

[seebart]

And in the State of Florida, state employees are prevented, by legislation, from uttering the words "climate change" in public!

What happens if they shout "climate change" at the top of their lungs.

[kbdfr]

The german laws are a bit harsh in my view , banning certain symbols even from textbooks and historic educational videos and films and so on.

I totally get why , it just always reminds me of the quote. "Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it." I know thats a bit far fetched but every slippery slope starts with a single step.

For your information, in Germany even the swastika is not banned from textbooks and historic educational videos, nor from films.

The law which forbids the use of Nazi symbols provides that it is "not applicable if [such use] serves to further civil enlightenment, to avert unconstitutional aims, to promote art or science, research or teaching, reporting about current historical events or similar purposes".

[Muirium]

And for your information, the swastika is frowned upon when drawn on jotters, as my 11 or 12 year old self discovered when he got pulled up by the teacher one day, as they'd spotted my chosen decoration for my German class work…

Live free or die!!!

[seebart]

Of course the German law should only really concern the specific Nazi-related use of the Swastika which...

is considered to be a sacred and auspicious symbol in Hinduism, Buddhism, and Jainism and dates back to before the 2nd century BCE.[3]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

Since adolf and his crew only copied it.

[Muirium]

Exactly:



off-topic-f10/scottish-independence-t86 ... ml#p229132

Trust the nazis to bring back the wrong message entirely from their Indian tour.

[Redmaus]

...

[Muirium]

Free speech is used as an excuse for a lot of shit in the US. There's a balance to be struck.

[adhoc]

[…] Now we have […] Germany arresting their citizens for critisizing their government o.O

I'm curious what your source might be for that.

Wow, google sure is hard to use.

I'm looking forward to your new excuses why the sources are not valid!

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/eu ... story.html

http://www.infowars.com/germany-orders- ... dia-posts/

http://www.breitbart.com/tech/2015/12/1 ... migration/

Facebook, Twitter, Google Collude With German Government To Censor Discussion On Immigration

German authorities, meanwhile, have reached a deal with Facebook, Google and Twitter to get tougher on offensive content, with the outlets agreeing to apply domestic laws, rather than their own corporate policies, to reviews of posts.

If you need more links let me know. I have no problems using Google.

Here again, you are distorting the facts, or rather just asserting things which are not true.
You speak of [quoting you] "Germany arresting their citizens for critisizing their government" while the links provided clearly indicate that the German government is simply taking steps to have hate speech deleted from the social media, thus enforcing national law (which, as you perhaps are not aware, is the duty of any government).

• Your third link (breitbart.com) doesn't report anything of the kind alleged, but merely formulates attacks [quote:] "Facebook, Twitter, Google Collude With German Government To Censor Discussion On Immigration".
• Your second link (a site called InfoWars) is of absolutely no value for reference, being obviously a simple propaganda site and by no way an information site [quote:] "EDITOR’S NOTE: Germany is country that has been overrun with teeming hordes of Muslim migrants, brought in by Angela Merkel. Thousands of German citizens have been attacked, raped, assaulted and their homes vandalized. But if you dare to post the truth on social media about what is really happening in Germany, you will have your computers seized and you will be arrested. How much longer until that begins to happen here in America?".
• Your first link (the Washington Post), the only serious one you provide, doesn't mention anyone having been arrested, not even the man who [quote:] "had posted the tragic image of the dead 3-year-old Syrian boy whose body on a Turkish beach became a symbol of the refugee crisis. Along with the photo, he had posted: 'We are not mourning, we are celebrating!'"

So your affirmation [quoting you:] "Now we have […] Germany arresting their citizens for critisizing their government" proves to not even be an exaggeration, but nothing than a simple lie.
The guy was not arrested, and he had not criticized the government, but celebrated the death of a 3-year-old on the only ground that he was a refugee.

By the way, don't you find it disgusting?

Well, the arrests were done, I can search for more sources for you, because you obviously can't google.

Yes, yes, it's disgusting, but who is friends with such people? It's an eco chamber of social rejects. You're giving up on freedom of speech for a couple of outcasts.

[Redmaus]

...

[seebart]

It really shouldn't concern anything considering free speech, but they don't have that in Germany.

Sure we do. Nazi symbols do not have anything to do with "free speech" in Germany's case. You see people running around randomly in large US cilties in full Ku Klux Klan outfits these days? So if you do not see that do you then argue that therefore the USA has a lack of personal freedoms? Although I did see this recently which is 91 years old:

August 8, 1925. "Dr. H.W. Evans, Imperial Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan, K.K.K. parade, Washington D.C."

14032u.jpg (958.79 KiB) Viewed 4474 times

[scottc]

[Redmaus]

...

[seebart]

OK just read that now. It's the "real life" version.

[Muirium]

I might have preferred that ballot design, but it's still Arial, gah!

Free speech is used as an excuse for a lot of shit in the US. There's a balance to be struck.

No there fucking isn't, I have 1st amendment rights. There is no "balance" needed when it comes to personal freedoms.

Sure there is. All those lunatic cults you have over there which can say any hateful thing they want, including incitement to violence against gays, pregnant women seeking abortions, and on and on, immune from justice, entirely because of the First Amendment. It wasn't made for that purpose — the Bill of Rights was written in a liberal spirit of empowering good minded citizens — yet the effect of elevating freedom of speech to a national fetish is to empower the worst of people to say the most purposefully distasteful and unhelpful things. Fuck them! They should be prosecuted for Incitement to racial hatred and the like, appropriate for whatever batshit insanity they're up to at the time. But in America, they're protected from reason, justice and frankly any sense of responsibility.

This stuff is tricky. That's why we have criminal law and justice systems, with politicians forever monitoring and editing the rules. But as I said: everything only comes in black or white nowadays, huh? Spoiler: the truth is anything but.

[seebart]

Actually the other way around, Germany started having free speech beginning 1945 at the end of WWII. There was no free speech during the third reich. Before that yes. But not like today. Comparing Germany to the USA is in this case is impossible.

Just because some people have intolerant or objectively evil views does not mean they should be deprived or their constitutional rights.

I totally agree. Which is very representative of German law.

[Redmaus]

...

[seebart]

But the "Bill of Rights" only appies to the USA in that form. Other countires have their own laws regarding that, you do understand that right Redmaus? BTW the "Denazification" was obviously intitialized by the Allies right after WWII.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denazification

Haven't people been arrested for speaking out against refugees though?

No, not that I know of. But there have been arrests for burning down refugee camps or trying to do so. But that's not really about free speech? In fact there is a quite a lot of public anti-immigrant morale by many in Germany these days, even by politicians.

[Muirium]

This stuff is tricky. That's why we have criminal law and justice systems, with politicians forever monitoring and editing the rules. But as I said: everything only comes in black or white nowadays, huh? Spoiler: the truth is anything but.

Once again, bringing up racist groups does not change basic human rights. Its called the Bill of Rights, not the Bill of stuff that I like to hear. Yes there are hateful people out there. Get used to it.

No you should not be prosecuted for expressing your beliefs. That is insanity. Which would lead to any views against the status quo to be prosecuted.

See what I mean? Black and white thinking destroys debate.

You've been told, again and again, by your culture that the first amendment (let alone the ridiculous misuse of the Right of State Militias to Bear Arms second amendment!) is inviolable and a keystone of American civilisation. It's an article of faith for you and most Americans. And yet its cost is clear.

I know they tell you that the outside world is a despicable shithole, deprived of the rights Americans alone have defined and defended for centuries. Horseshit. There's plenty of better ways to deal with freedom of speech than treating it as a magical unicorn. It's not a binary. Indeed, it is just an article of faith in America, despite its treasured place in law. What about the freedom to describe the detailed workings of classified technology like nuclear warheads and the missiles and guidance systems that deliver them? Or the freedom to share with the world the precise operations of the NSA? Whoops! Not so free after all…

Everyone puts practical limits on it. America would do better to can the whackos, or keep on suffering more Wacos. Yet that is the balance you guys are stuck with. It is far from the only valid one.

[Redmaus]

...

[Muirium]

Sure I do…



Why is Edward Snowden not free to speak in America? That's freedom of speech! An ideal, impractical, and untrue for every nation on Earth, mine and yours wholly included.

[seebart]

Actually all this right now right here is free speech Redmaus! Uncensored online discussions. Free speech. Doesn't get any better.

I can post direct links to NSA documents right now if I want. Or docs on North Korea. Or whatever I want. Free speech. Or Nazi archives, or ugly gay purple Unicorns...

[webwit]

Left is the new right, wanting to prosecute free speech, and right is the new left, using free speech for (often rather distasteful) anti-establishment rhetoric. Pim Fortuyn was assassinated by the left for his opinions. These are interesting times. What I'm amazed about most is that basic free speech fundamentals seem to be forgotten by many. I.e. you should fight for the proverbial Nazi in the Blues Brothers for their right to be able to exist, and for idiots outside abortion clinics, because the alternative, a class which now and in the future decides what can be said and what can't, is much, much worse and truly fascist and scary. The slippery slope (it's not about the Nazi or the abortion idiots). Millennials scare me when it comes to this. The movement seems to be towards witch hunting.

[fohat]

Millennials scare me when it comes to this.

Me, too.

I have worked hard to instill the importance of historical perspective in my children.
Fortunately, they mostly "get it" but a majority of their peers don't.
My fear is that now that "people don't read" any more, the biggest thing that they don't read is history.

[seebart]

My fear is the beginning of what I see now already, users so absorbed in consuming crap online all day long that they do not notice missing the actual imporant information. This seems particularly so with kids who have grown up with smartphones and facebook etc. and are used to that being their reality, their daily life. Pretty scary.

[jacobolus]

Historical perspective?

On aggregate, Americans over the age of 55 have almost no historical perspective. They can’t even remember basic world events from the 1970s and 1980s, much less learn from the further past. Try asking a random old person about, say, the Iran/Contra scandal, the 1973 oil crisis, Operation Condor and the Dirty Wars in South America, the Latin American debt crisis, the US savings and loan crisis, the end of the Bretton Woods system, the Camp David accords, .... or pretty much whatever other thing .... and you’ll just get blank stares. You might get some vague reaction if you ask about Watergate and Nixon’s resignation or the fall of the Berlin Wall, if you’re lucky. If you want to have a deep conversation about the past it’s safer to stick to famous sports matches or celebrity gossip.

I think the kids are just fine.

[Muirium]

Hear hear! Baby boomers sat back and got fat watching tv. Most people in any age enjoy that greatest liberty of all: ignorance. Same as always was.