Brexit: The DT Poll

[Muirium]

Project Fear has gotten to him. Constitutional questions become "Yeah, sure, but what's in it for me?" Retail politics at its Clintonian best!

[Muirium]

One fact to rule them all

Just as in the Scottish referendum, people insist that what they want are “facts”. It’s as if they’re waiting for one killer fact that will seal the argument. Yet there are any number of facts available, both for and against Brexit. Maybe they want a comparison website, where you can type in your circumstances and choose your supplier of government based on who offers the best deal. That’s the level at which many of the economic claims on both sides have been made: “Vote Remain and save £4,300!” or “Vote Leave and we’ll cut VAT on fuel!” (That tax was introduced, by the way, not by Europe but by the arch-Brexiteer Norman Lamont and reduced by Gordon Brown against Tory opposition.)

Identity crisis

Ultimately, I believe that the decision is ­existential. What sort of people are we, and what sort of country do we want to live in? Are we outward-looking and ­co-operative, believing in the principle that we can achieve more by uniting across borders? Or are we angry, disillusioned with the EU project in general and immigration in particular? Am I Barack Obama or Marine Le Pen? Mark Carney or Jacob Rees-Mogg? Stephen Hawking or Chris Grayling? In a sense, this is our Hillary Clinton v Donald Trump moment. I know which I prefer.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk ... hs-and-bbc

[fohat]

Identity crisis

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk ... hs-and-bbc

I particularly liked the bit about the flow of Brits south to Spain! Maybe Hillary should start a "retire to Mexico" movement.

[seebart]

Identity crisis

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk ... hs-and-bbc

I particularly liked the bit about the flow of Brits south to Spain! Maybe Hillary should start a "retire to Mexico" movement.

I thought that's what Florida and Arizona were for?

[andrewjoy]

Project Fear has gotten to him. Constitutional questions become "Yeah, sure, but what's in it for me?" Retail politics at its Clintonian best!

Its not so much project fear , its just i honestly don't give a shit about constitutional stuff.

Some asshole in London making a decision thats not in my intrest or someone in Europe doing it, its makes no difference , the idea of the people having any sway whatsoever over a government is a illusion.

All i care about is how it will effect the average jo in the country and how it will effect me.

Its a total waste of time and money the whole thing.

And i happen to like my consumer protection laws and employment laws.

[Muirium]

The difference is some arsehole in London that you can remove in an election, versus some arsehole in Brussels that you absolutely cannot.

Me? I'd like an arsehole in Edinburgh instead of London. Easier to throw rotten fruit at him.

[seebart]

The difference is some arsehole in London that you can remove in an election, versus some arsehole in Brussels that you absolutely cannot.

Me? I'd like an arsehole in Edinburgh instead of London. Easier to throw rotten fruit at him.

Yes, much more practical.

[Muirium]

Apparently, things are really heating up now, with just a week to go until the real vote:



The stock market is in rollercoaster mode. The media is doing still more coke than before. And even my man Singh reckons it's getting competitive at last:

http://www.ncpolitics.uk/2016/06/foreca ... rply.html/

I'm casting my mail ballot tomorrow. Right after the DT poll closes. Remain still leads our vote here, but even it's fairly close.

[webwit]

Now the end game will begin. The real scaremongering. Next week we'll hear why leave/remain will really be the end of the world. As leave means change I expect remain to do a more effective job.

[Muirium]

Absolutely. People always flock back towards status quo at the very end. That's why I still don't expect Brexit to happen, and why Singh's chart above looks right to me.

But, if England is on a knife edge, and Remain's lead is all from Scotland, the real fun begins! Mwahahaha!!

[seebart]

thatcher meme.jpg (94.59 KiB) Viewed 4402 times

Hmm...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Ki ... ndum,_1975

[Muirium]

Everyone did, but the Scots islanders. And they've all been whining they were duped, ever since! Damn boomers…

[webwit]

The Dutch had two referendums and voted against European Union plans (EU constitution, Ukraine), although both were and are outplayed and ignored by the bigger powers. There the end game had the reverse effect in the vote. The British and authority. The Dutch and authority.

[Muirium]

I'm just in this to rock the boat. As I said at the beginning, I don't really give a shit whether London's in the EU, or if the EU is weakened by them leaving. What I want is Scottish independence. The more we and England drift apart, the better for my goal.

I'd rather an independent Scotland, stuck outside the EU, or even within it, over what we have now. No contest.

[seebart]

EEC vote was 41 years ago...anyways from what I'm seeing in the media here today even Germany is getting cold feet now since this damn Brexit is too close to call.

[Muirium]

Germany leaving the EU would be like when Russia left the Soviet Union. Endgame.

[webwit]

Hell even if there would be a poll here whether puppies should be ceremonially slaughtered or not, and the establishment promotes the "no" vote because we'd burn in hell forever, we will vote for blood. Because.

[Muirium]

Well, if you *do* eat your peas, there's no TV for you tonight, young man!

[seebart]

Germany leaving the EU would be like when Russia left the Soviet Union. Endgame.

No I meant cold feet about the Brits leaving and the unknown implications. Germnay will never leave the EU although there are quite a few German tax payers who kind of "envy" the whole Brexit process...

[Halvar]

They would never dare to have a referendum about EU here. Polls are pretty clear:

EDIT: Sorry, that was a bullshit link (based on internet polls). From what I can find, it seems like there is actually no majority for a DEXIT in Germany.

[seebart]

You're right Halvar, it would never get that far.

[Muirium]

Aren't referendums banned by your colonial, English and American-written constitution anyway? That's the trope we hear over here.

You can thank us for saving you from yourselves! We, however, aren't quite so smart back home…

[Halvar]

Edited out the link, sorry, on further reading there was nothing "scientific" at all about that.

[seebart]

Aren't referendums banned by your colonial, English and American-written constitution anyway? That's the trope we hear over here.

Basically that's how it works out which is not opportune and needs to be changed.

You can thank us for saving you from yourselves! We, however, aren't quite so smart back home…

Aha, less referendums less problems...? Hmmm dunno if that really works?

[Muirium]

Forgot my [brownfont] again, didn't I!

Here's the thing about referendums: there are good, meaningful, exciting ones, and there are bad ones. The Scottish independence referendum did us a world of good up here. My side lost, which really hurt. But we're not tearing each other up about it, and Scots are turning out heavily in all elections now. We'll likely be punching above our weight next week as well, because the power we tasted in 2014 woke us up. Both sides.

This 2016 referendum, though, is framed as a dumb question between a clearly good and supposedly damn foolish choice. Doesn't feel like we the people matter in this story. Rather, the whole thing is a tool to get our permission to settle scores between Tories.

You want the first kind of referendum. The second? Not so much.

[seebart]

Crazy fact: no German tax payer / citizen was ever asked in any kind of referendum if Germany should join the EU 1992 and adopt the Euro 2001. I mean it's a "pretty big deal" after all right? Sure, we did not "join" the EU but rather founded it with the others but bottom line is no German voter was ever asked at any point about any of it!

[webwit]

You want the first kind of referendum. The second? Not so much.

Opinion. It works for the Swiss. They vote yes or no. Including silly ones like free money for everyone, like in Star Trek.

[Muirium]

The universal income one was always going to lose. But I can see something like that happening someday. We automate everything, so what's next? Automatic wealth!

[webwit]

Sure, but much later after much change. Now the middle, working class would pay for it, instead of the beneficiaries of the automation.

[fohat]

Crazy fact: no German tax payer / citizen was ever asked in any kind of referendum if Germany should join the EU 1992 and adopt the Euro 2001.

You remind me of a memorable quote from the Greek "situation"

"The very idea that a government would consult its people on a problematic proposal … was greeted with incomprehension and often with disdain bordering on contempt.
I was even asked: ‘How do you expect common people to understand such complex issues?'"

- Greek Finance Minister Yanis Varoufakis 2015