Most Overrated/Underrated Switch or Keyboard?

jacobolus

26 Jun 2016, 05:18

ramnes wrote: Also, Alps keycaps suck balls, like... really. In comparison to Cherry keycaps, that's a big joke.
There is a much wider variety of keycaps available for Alps-mount switches, including several types which are nicer than anything you can find for MX mount. Some of the best ones are pretty rare, stuck on obscure XT or AT boards, terminal boards, or typewriters, but there are also amazing and very common varieties, like the lovely thick dyesubs on early 1990s Apple keyboards, for which MX mount has nothing comparable.

What you can’t find is as many little translucent robot heads or skulls or whatever. Meh.

jacobolus

26 Jun 2016, 05:19

zslane wrote: And by that measure, Topre boards will never be high-end until they can be delivered (or swapped) with Space Cadet keycaps. Thankfully, that day is coming!
These SP “Space Cadet” keycaps have a broken profile. Putting those on your Topre keyboard is a big step down as far as typing comfort or efficiency is concerned.
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The *real* Space Cadet keyboard, with hall effect switches, had amazing keycaps though, thanks to the tilted switch stems:
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(You have to look past the first few columns to the main letter section on the pic above.)
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photekq
Cherry Picker

26 Jun 2016, 06:31

Yeah, all in the tilted stems! SA has an almost identical profile to beamspring when the keycaps are laid flat.. but of course MX does not mount the same as beamspring!

If you have an MX keyboard with a certain slant you can create custom keycaps for it that would match beamspring top profile exactly, but if you change that slant.. no more!

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Elrick

26 Jun 2016, 06:35

jacobolus wrote: What you can’t find is as many little translucent robot heads or skulls or whatever. Meh.
Totally understand your point here. The MX switch has literally climaxed everywhere, spreading it's vile influence like some ugly molester.

Actually appreciate the other switches including the Alps range, hence have now gone through numerous Ebay listings looking for that 'unique' keyboard with non-MX switches.

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emdude
Model M Apologist

26 Jun 2016, 06:59

jacobolus wrote:
ramnes wrote: Also, Alps keycaps suck balls, like... really. In comparison to Cherry keycaps, that's a big joke.
There is a much wider variety of keycaps available for Alps-mount switches, including several types which are nicer than anything you can find for MX mount. Some of the best ones are pretty rare, stuck on obscure XT or AT boards, terminal boards, or typewriters, but there are also amazing and very common varieties, like the lovely thick dyesubs on early 1990s Apple keyboards, for which MX mount has nothing comparable.
Apple dyesubs are nice, but then you have to put up with the nonstandard bottom row. Really wish there were more PBT key sets in more traditional layouts. There is the SGI Granite and the Alps-made Dell AT101, but both are relatively hard to get. There is nothing wrong with the key caps, but if one is looking for a PBT set in an ANSI layout, then the options are pretty limited.

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ramnes
ПБТ НАВСЕГДА

26 Jun 2016, 12:19

I agree that Apple key caps are nice. But those are the only nice Alps caps I know and like emdude said, the bottom row isn't standard anyway.

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Chyros

26 Jun 2016, 13:43

ramnes wrote: I agree that Apple key caps are nice. But those are the only nice Alps caps I know and like emdude said, the bottom row isn't standard anyway.
Don't you like the Tai-Hao Cherry-like ABS doubleshots? =o

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scottc

26 Jun 2016, 13:46

Really difficult to get, awkward layout, and expensive. Though I would really love a set...

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Laser
emacs -nw

26 Jun 2016, 13:54

cookie wrote: I am so glad that Stock HHKB/Realforce caps are so damn good, otherwise I'd be forced to salvage a nova to get some decent caps on my HHKBs :D
You can do this: http://www.cmstore.eu/spare-parts/perip ... -stem-set/

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cookie

26 Jun 2016, 13:55

Laser wrote:
cookie wrote: I am so glad that Stock HHKB/Realforce caps are so damn good, otherwise I'd be forced to salvage a nova to get some decent caps on my HHKBs :D
You can do this: http://www.cmstore.eu/spare-parts/perip ... -stem-set/
Not in stock buddy :(

I've asked CM when it will be available again. Sadly they have no Idea :( :( :(

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Laser
emacs -nw

26 Jun 2016, 14:03

Oh, pity - strange that the site appears to have an ISO set (doesn't display out of stock, like with other items - ah, I see, they don't have "add to cart" either ...).

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ramnes
ПБТ НАВСЕГДА

26 Jun 2016, 14:52

Chyros wrote:
ramnes wrote: I agree that Apple key caps are nice. But those are the only nice Alps caps I know and like emdude said, the bottom row isn't standard anyway.
Don't you like the Tai-Hao Cherry-like ABS doubleshots? =o
I prefer Cherry dye-subs! And I'm not really fond of big ass enters. ;)

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fohat
Elder Messenger

26 Jun 2016, 15:27

Chyros wrote:
ramnes wrote:
I agree that Apple key caps are nice. But those are the only nice Alps caps I know and like emdude said, the bottom row isn't standard anyway.
Don't you like the Tai-Hao Cherry-like ABS doubleshots?
I have some of those and they are OK, but the heavy PBT Apples are miles better than anything else.

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scottc

26 Jun 2016, 15:41

Fohat, you mean the very thick ones that came with FAME boards? If you're not a fan, I'd be thrilled to work something out with you for a trade or even cash .

I have both an ISO and ANSI set of AEK caps and they really just don't compare to Cherry PBT dyesubs. The Apple caps are very nice, but the Cherries are just sublime (pun intended).

jacobolus

26 Jun 2016, 15:54

I suspect fohat is talking about the more typical medium-thin Alps profile Tai Hao caps, not the rare obscure old Cherry profile ones.
scottc wrote:I have both an ISO and ANSI set of AEK caps and they really just don't compare to Cherry PBT dyesubs. The Apple caps are very nice, but the Cherries are just sublime (pun intended).
Speak for yourself. :-)

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fohat
Elder Messenger

26 Jun 2016, 16:20

scottc wrote: Fohat, you mean the very thick ones that came with FAME boards? If you're not a fan, I'd be thrilled to work something out with you for a trade or even cash .

I have both an ISO and ANSI set of AEK caps and they really just don't compare to Cherry PBT dyesubs. The Apple caps are very nice, but the Cherries are just sublime (pun intended).
It is hard to understand what you are asking, but I have never owned a FAME keyboard.
I was referring to the PBT Alps caps that come on AEK and AEK2 which are just about ideal weight and feel for me.
But IBM M/F keys are all I really use on a regular basis.

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scottc

26 Jun 2016, 16:23

Yeah, you're likely right Jacobolus. But I'm pretty sure it was the FAME ones that Chyros referred to since he said "Cherry-like".

About Apple keycaps: maybe I need to try a NIB specimen to really be sure, but I find them overrated. They're good, but I prefer the keyfeel of Cherry PBT caps by a mile. This is from an aging HASRO board in good condition, but not NIB. I find the Apple caps a bit slippery in comparison.

The thin Tai-Hao double shots are quite meh in my opinion. They're better than stock caps on modern boards, but not by a wide margin.

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Chyros

26 Jun 2016, 16:57

scottc wrote: Yeah, you're likely right Jacobolus. But I'm pretty sure it was the FAME ones that Chyros referred to since he said "Cherry-like".
Yeah, those ones.
The thin Tai-Hao double shots are quite meh in my opinion. They're better than stock caps on modern boards, but not by a wide margin.
But the sound they make, the sound!! :D

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scottc

26 Jun 2016, 17:14

Since you're such a fan, I'll give you TWO sets of thin caps for just one set of thick ones. And you can keep the numpad. Win/win! ;)

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Chyros

26 Jun 2016, 17:34

scottc wrote: Since you're such a fan, I'll give you TWO sets of thin caps for just one set of thick ones. And you can keep the numpad. Win/win! ;)
Cheeky bugger :p . I already have a spare set anyway :p .

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scottc

26 Jun 2016, 18:03

You can't deny that it was worth a go :D

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zslane

26 Jun 2016, 18:09

jacobolus wrote: These SP “Space Cadet” keycaps have a broken profile. Putting those on your Topre keyboard is a big step down as far as typing comfort or efficiency is concerned.
I sort of feel that your analysis of the SA profile, while maybe technically accurate, greatly overstates a largely irrelevant issue, at least for me. Typing comfort and efficiency is of little concern to me. For 35 years my hands have learned to accomodate whatever keyboard I put in front of myself, which includes everything from mid-70s terminal keyboards and IBM Selectrics to the mech boards I use now. At the moment I like the feel and performance of MX reds (linear) and Topres (tactile). Beyond that it comes down purely to aesthetics.

Now, If a manufacturer were to come out with a new Hall Effect board with angled stems, and SP made the Space Cadet keyset (and the Honeywell set too please; I love them both) to accomodate them, I'd certainly try it out and maybe even really like it. But since that won't happening any time soon, I go with the next best thing. And the next best thing, whatever it may be, must, out of necessity, provide MX stems.

As far as switches that I've used in the past that I think are overrated or under-appreciated, I'd say that buckling springs are vastly overrated; all those loud, pingy Model Ms were a scourge on humanity for over a decade. The Alps in the Apple keyboards I owned were very nice, and if SP made my favorite keysets with Alps stems, I'd consider looking into Alps again, but they don't. My fondest memories are of the old pre-1980 terminal keyboards with spherical keycaps, and I think Hall Effect is tragically under-appreciated. The only reason they were abandoned was cost, but the mech keyboard community is one that spends lots of money on quality (past or present), and I think it is a real shame that Hall Effect switches never survived long enough to enjoy a modern revival.

jacobolus

26 Jun 2016, 18:43

zslane wrote: Beyond that it comes down purely to aesthetics.
So in other words, your definition of “high end” is that it matches your preferred color scheme / level of plastic gloss? Well, fair enough.
the mech keyboard community is one that spends lots of money on quality (past or present)
Adjusted for inflation, keyboards and typewriters from the 1970s would cost more than a thousand dollars.

There’s essentially zero market for that. If there were such a market, vendors would be willing to do the engineering and production.

The “mech keyboard community” is willing to pay something like a third to half the typical 1980s prices, at the maximum. Almost nobody today would even be willing to pay for even the top-end keyboards from the 80s. It just seems like “lots of money on quality” compared to the schlock that gets passed off as keyboards post 2000.

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zslane

26 Jun 2016, 19:40

jacobolus wrote:
zslane wrote: Beyond that it comes down purely to aesthetics.
So in other words, your definition of “high end” is that it matches your preferred color scheme / level of plastic gloss? Well, fair enough.
I think that's a bit of an unfair oversimplification, but not that far off. Surface texture isn't terribly crucial to me. But I do feel that SA keycaps indeed deserve to be called "high end", and not just because of the fantastic Honey/Cadet colorways they come in. They are thick, heavy, and nicely shaped, though I'd love them even more if they were a little more deeply scooped and a little rounder.
Adjusted for inflation, keyboards and typewriters from the 1970s would cost more than a thousand dollars.
You have to adjust for more than inflation though. The market for terminal keyboards in the 1970s was much smaller and more specialized than computer keyboards today. If the market for Microswitch Hall Effect keyboards back then was as large and evolved as computer keyboards today, they would be substantially cheaper; more in line with today's high-end mechanicals.

Hak Foo

26 Jun 2016, 21:37

scottc wrote: The thin Tai-Hao double shots are quite meh in my opinion. They're better than stock caps on modern boards, but not by a wide margin.
I think Tai-Hao is underappreciated. I know people don't care for the coating on their PBT caps, but the ABS caps are solid no-surprises products *especially for the price*. And they were able to put out an ALPS set without a huge amount of drama or an astronomical price.

I actually prefer their typography to SP's. The SP font looks good on spherical caps, but it feels incongruous with a "modern look".

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Moufinure

26 Jun 2016, 22:28

Topre are completely overrated! I can't understand why people want a $200+ keyboard that feels like a rubber dome...

Hum, yes, I actually own one :roll:
Last edited by Moufinure on 27 Jun 2016, 12:30, edited 1 time in total.

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fohat
Elder Messenger

27 Jun 2016, 00:44

Hak Foo wrote:
I think Tai-Hao is underappreciated. I know people don't care for the coating on their PBT caps, but the ABS caps are solid no-surprises products *especially for the price*. And they were able to put out an ALPS set without a huge amount of drama or an astronomical price.

I actually prefer their typography to SP's. The SP font looks good on spherical caps, but it feels incongruous with a "modern look".
I have a set of the Alps "Dolch-esque" sets from last year and they look great but don't feel as good as the old AEK2 sets which look like crap but feel great (I won't go to the ancient joke) and don't have over a dozen of the caps that you would need to make them work in the real world. I also have a great Dolch-esque set from a vintage laptop that also falls short.

Unfortunately, what I would most like to do would be to put them on something like a Northgate 101 or a Filco Zero but they "just miss" the boat.

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Invisius

27 Jun 2016, 01:42

fohat wrote:
Invisius wrote:
These tactile yellow clones feel better than all the white, orange and blue ALPS boards I've used.
OK, I have to ask:

What the heck are those tactile yellow clones and where are they found?
Honestly I have no idea! They're from a Chinese marked and built board, with the only English markings shown on the PCB.
It's got a half-backspace and bigass enter, and the FCC ID on the back points to https://fccid.io/JO6RA-1D . They feel like blue ALPS with a chunkier click, metal plate, and decently thick PBT caps even!

Not sure if the legends are pad printed or dye-sub, but here they are:
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Touch_It

27 Jun 2016, 03:53

Overrated: mx brown. They feel like they want to be linear, but fail and feel scratchy, for lack of a better word. Underrated. I'm going out on a limb and say ibm M2 buckling springs. To me they definitely feel better than model m boards but not as nice as model F's. I'm of course disregarding anything to do with build quality.


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Findecanor

27 Jun 2016, 05:41

I can agree there. But they were originally made for the Kinesis contoured keyboards and on those I think that they do feel better than on a "flat" keyboard because you press the keys more straight down - with a more pushing finger motion.

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