Brexit: The DT Poll

[webwit]

Arbeit muss sich lohnen!

[seebart]

Yeah well...that certainly has more than one "tone" to it in those cases and you know there are more cases like that. If it wasn't all paid for with tax Euros I would not get pissed off.

[fohat]

We can only hope that the "information age" is making people wake up to the age-old horror of governmental activities being conducted in secret.

Demanding transparency is easier and more direct than demanding change, because while there may be multiple directions and/or definitions of "change" there is only one plausible concept of transparency.

The stumbling block is always apathy.

[fohat]

Winnie the Pooh

[Redmaus]

...

[adhoc]

Wanting to leave the EU - racist.

[kbdfr]

I did not say that the EU is the best of all possible worlds,
but just reacted to a contemptuous buzz-word:

[…] Imagine that, no more enforced EU laws by unelected figures […]

I just can't hear that shit anymore. […]

Hell, ministers in national governments are not elected either,
but you would never think of disdainfuly calling them "unelected figures".

And curiously enough, the videos posted to show how people trick to get money for not doing their work
are precisely not of "unelected figures", but exactly the opposite: elected members of the European Parliament.

[BimboBB]

Nonetheless, the EU is even less democratic than my present government. I mean, I have to vote for my national government (who will be the whore of Brussels anyway and has nothing say anymore) who is than picking one guy out of 28 EU commissioners who are in charge of making laws for 300 Mill people.

So if I am pissed about an EU Law (something like CETA or TTIP)….I have to vote for another national government (even if my national government did nothing wrong)….and than I change exactly one guy out of 28 and its not even assured that he is not acting the same as the other guy before, because these commissioners don’t take any mandate from the people.

They don’t call it “democracy-deficit” for nothing.

[kbdfr]

[…] my national government (who will be the whore of Brussels anyway […]

Well, no doubt that's a overwhelmingly factual, well-founded and reasoned argument
"the whore of Brussels" - that's exactly the kind of wholly meaningless phrase that poisons the whole debate.

So if I am pissed about an EU Law (something like CETA or TTIP)….I have to vote for another national government (even if my national government did nothing wrong)….and than I change exactly one guy out of 28 and its not even assured that he is not acting the same as the other guy before, because these commissioners don’t take any mandate from the people.

You seem not to be aware that European legislation is initiated by the European Commission, but voted by the European Parliament, whose members are elected by the EU citizens. The difference to, say, Germany is that there, the Parliament also has initiating power. That, in my eyes, is the genuine "democracy deficite" of the EU: the inability of the European Parliament to (instead of being just able just adopt, amend or reject laws) also propose new legislation on its own.
So if you are "pissed about an EU law", vote for another EU deputy - exactly like you would vote for another national deputy when "pissed" about a national law.

By the way, in your country as well, members of Parliament (quoting you) "don't take any mandate from the people", but, as the Constitution itself determines, are "not bound by orders or instructions, and responsible only to their conscience".

[webwit]

My national government is the whore of Brussels as well. Would you like me to list all their bending over? Where would you like me to start? Maybe the EU constitution, which we voted against and our government then signed anyway? And it ends with the Ukraine treaty, which we voted against, but our government still hasn't blocked the treaty, because the EU commands them to not listen to us. They are more occupied with framing anyone standing in their bending over ways as racists and idiots.

[adhoc]

My national government is the whore of Brussels as well. Would you like me to list all their bending over? Where would you like me to start? Maybe the EU constitution, which we voted against and our government then signed anyway? And it ends with the Ukraine treaty, which we voted against, but our government still hasn't blocked the treaty, because the EU commands them to not listen to us. They are more occupied with framing anyone standing in their bending over ways as racists and idiots.

Wasn't the explanation for the referendum given to you as "referendums are for getting an opinion only"? What a load of bollocks.

[BimboBB]

The difference to, say, Germany is that there, the Parliament also has initiating power. That, in my eyes, is the genuine "democracy deficite" of the EU: the inability of the European Parliament to (instead of being just able just adopt, amend or reject laws) also propose new legislation on its own.

Agreed, that would be something people could live with, i guess. But than would be the question for what you would need the "EU commision" at all.

By the way, in your country as well, members of Parliament (quoting you) "don't take any mandate from the people", but, as the Constitution itself determines, are "not bound by orders or instructions, and responsible only to their conscience".

Of course every parlamentarian in Germany has a mandate to act as a representive of the people. Thats what you vote them for. This doesnt happen at all with these EU commission guys.

[kbdfr]

My national government is the whore of Brussels as well. Would you like me to list all their bending over? Where would you like me to start? Maybe the EU constitution, which we voted against and our government then signed anyway? […]

I am quite certain you know that this is just not true.

After the Heads of Governments and States of the EU had signed the proposed constitution (29 October 2004), it needed approval ("ratification") in all EU Member States. In some of them referendums were held, so in the Netherlands (1 June 2005).
As a majority voted against the proposed constitution, it was not, repeat: not, ratified by the Dutch government. Because of that (and of course also because it was also rejected elsewhere), It never entered into force.

The Treaty of Lissabon, which was later adopted and ratified, has nothing to do with an EU constitution.
For your information, it was the first EU treaty to provide the possibility for a Member State to leave the EU - do you call that a loss of democracy?

By the way, the treaty of Lissabon was adopted and ratified by all EU governments.

So folks, if you are not satisfied with the EU, change your national governments.
Calling your actual government "whore of Brussels" will surely help not only isolationists and nationalists, but also all kinds of fascists and racists to win national elections and so get rid of the EU.
But don't complain, then, if they do not stop there and get rid of democracy in your own country.

[webwit]

Yep, they took the rejected constitution, put a couple of changes in there, and ratified that instead, almost the same thing, without a second referendum. Nice trick. The party which did it was decimated in elections hasn't been in the government since. They're trying the same trick with the Ukraine treaty. You seem to be a great fan of such disgusting politics. Fan of whores.

[kbdfr]

[…]

By the way, in your country as well, members of Parliament (quoting you) "don't take any mandate from the people", but, as the Constitution itself determines, are "not bound by orders or instructions, and responsible only to their conscience".

Of course every parlamentarian in Germany has a mandate to act as a representive of the people. Thats what you vote them for. This doesnt happen at all with these EU commission guys.

Wrong again.
Exactly like elected members of the Bundestag represent the whole German people and not only those who actually voted for them in their own districts, but are not bound by oders or instructions e.g. from their own voters,
members of the EU Commission represent the government which sent them to the Commission, but are independent from them. Article 245(1) of the Treaty provides that the Member States have to respect their independence and not seek to influence them in the performance of their tasks.

Facts, folks, facts!

[kbdfr]

[…] You seem to be a great fan of such disgusting politics. Fan of whores.

Are you not the one who always rejects arguments ad hominem?

[seebart]

[…] You seem to be a great fan of such disgusting politics. Fan of whores.

Are you not the one who always rejects arguments ad hominem?

Yes kbdfr, your enthusiasm for the administration of the EU seems ambiguous and conjuring.

[webwit]

You're absolutely right, I meant: You seem to be a great fan of such democratic politics. Fan of our enlightened overlords.

[kbdfr]

[…] Yes kbdfr, your enthusiasm for the administration of the EU seems ambiguous and conjuring.

I am not particularly satisfied with the EU institutions,
but the Robin Hood in me strives to defend even evildoers when they are unjustly attacked,
even if the Don Quixote in me knows it is of no avail

You're absolutely right, I meant: You seem to be a great fan of such democratic politics. Fan of our enlightened overlords.

Ironic comments are OK

[seebart]

[…] Yes kbdfr, your enthusiasm for the administration of the EU seems ambiguous and conjuring.

I am not particularly satisfied with the EU institutions,..

Interesting, I'd like to hear some criticism for a change then.

[kbdfr]

[…] Yes kbdfr, your enthusiasm for the administration of the EU seems ambiguous and conjuring.

I am not particularly satisfied with the EU institutions,..

Interesting, I'd like to hear some criticism for a change then.

You may have noted my criticism of the European Parliament's absence of initiative power

[seebart]

You may have noted my criticism of the European Parliament's absence of initiative power

Insufficient. More please on other areas.

[cookie]

I highly doubt a shattered Europe can keep prosperity in the global circumstances we have right now.
What the EU needs right now is to be reformed in a way that the we feel united instead of heteronomous... I fully understand the discontent of smaller countries in the EU!

[BimboBB]

[…]

By the way, in your country as well, members of Parliament (quoting you) "don't take any mandate from the people", but, as the Constitution itself determines, are "not bound by orders or instructions, and responsible only to their conscience".

Of course every parlamentarian in Germany has a mandate to act as a representive of the people. Thats what you vote them for. This doesnt happen at all with these EU commission guys.

Wrong again.
Exactly like elected members of the Bundestag represent the whole German people and not only those who actually voted for them in their own districts, but are not bound by oders or instructions e.g. from their own voters,
members of the EU Commission represent the government which sent them to the Commission, but are independent from them. Article 245(1) of the Treaty provides that the Member States have to respect their independence and not seek to influence them in the performance of their tasks.

Facts, folks, facts!

So the EU commissioners are NOT representing their national governments. They are acting fully independently and in EU interest (whatever or whomever decides whats EU interest), as you mentioned correctly. Brussel just picks 28 guys out of each government and thats it...there is no chance for the people to influence this elitist group and their agenda, even if you change yr government.

[kbdfr]

[…] So the EU commissioners are NOT representing their national governments. They are acting fully independently and in EU interest (whatever or whomever decides whats EU interest), as you mentioned correctly. Brussel just picks 28 guys out of each government and thats it...there is no chance for the people to influence this elitist group and their agenda, even if you change yr government.

No, no, it's the opposite. Not Brussels picks 28 guys out of [the 28] government, but each government choses one person (not a member of the government) to be sent to the Commission. Of course each government nominates someone from their own party (or coalition), so each Commissioner reflects the political majority of their own country. It would be foolish to assume that once in function, they will completely change their mind about anything.
Once the list is complete, it has to be confirmed (or, as it is, rejected) by the European Parliament, but as a whole (i.e. the Parliament cannot reject a single Commissioner - seebart, this is another point I criticize).

When you say nobody can "influence this elitist group and their agenda", you are partly right and partly wrong.
Right because once in function, they must be free to decide without having to obey those who sent them there,
wrong because of course, lobbyists have far more implicit power than they should be allowed to (seebart, here again).
But the latter has nothing to do with the EU - it's a pest in the whole world.

By the way, while everybody seems to enjoy giving the EU a good thrashing,
I wonder how Nigel Farage has been a member of the European Parliament since 1999.
This means a net monthly salary of more than 6,000 EUR, plus a lump-sum of 4,000 EUR for costs, plus approx. 1,800 for assistents and secretaries, plus a daily allowance of 300 EUR when present in Parliament.
I for one wouldn't accept a single cent from someone I oppose as he does the EU

[adhoc]

To be fair, he did resign the moment he achieved his goal - brexit.

That would be about 12k€ per month, yes? 150k anually? A good businessman does more than that. It's A LOT of money, no question. But let's suppose they're all geniuses sacrificing themselves and their income to serve us. Haha.

The point I'm trying to make they cost us peanuts in the grand scheme of things. EU is rich. Very rich. Disbanding them because of the money is a non-argument.

[seebart]

No adhoc, he has not resigned from the EU commission. Yes kbdfr, those are valid points. Just the tip of the iceberg in of what's needed in terms of reform.

[adhoc]

Ah yes, you're right, he resigned from UKIP leadership.

[kbdfr]

To be fair, he did resign the moment he achieved his goal - brexit.

Wrong - he resigned not as a member of the EU Parliament, but as a UKIP leader,
and is still (and does not seem to want to stop being) a member of the EU Parliament.

Poor Farage, who could make much more money if he wasn't a member of the EU Parliament
Oh, and speaking about money:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigel_Far ... _avoidance

Edit: ninja'd - at least for the first part of my post

[adhoc]

Let's give them the benefit of the doubt and say they're all so awesome that they would make much more in the private sector, shall we 8) Then we can imagine how those poor folks are losing millions for doing our bidding.

Millions I tell ya!